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Alice

Why not? It�s interesting to me, because many of the things you say about what�s happening here, the Old Calendarists say is and has been happening there.

As opposed to the Old Calendarists or in addition to them?

That is excellent! I have heard mixed things from people who I have spoken to recently who have visited. Some have said there are pockets of true holiness, but that in other places church attendance and religious observance are abysmally low and that skepticism is becoming more widespread. I think I read somewhere that weekly attendance is under 10% in Greece.

That is truly wonderful that you have that connection.

My feeling is that in all places where there are Orthodox Christians there is both good and bad intermixed (much like our own souls), and we must discern what is where. No country or people is truly holy or better than another. God�s grace shines forth in many ways, through the Holy Elder you spoke of for instance or the Wonderworking icon of Sitka which I hope you had a chance to see as it made its way around the country.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I know very little about the Old Calendrist Greek Church and I don't even know anyone who belongs to their church.

I DO know, and have written about it here, that attendance is not all that great in Greece, religion is not all that important, and that there is apostasy (great sexual license, atheism, and witchcraft) there.

I just came back from a business trip there. On the plane I picked up what looked like a woman's magazine in Greek. I cannot tell you how upset I was to see a three page article on 'sprituality' from 'the witch of Smyrna' writing about 'astral projection' and giving spells with demon's names to call upon for your business to go well, etc.

On the other hand, after a particularly grueling day, my husband and I found ourselves going to the nearest church on the corner, (they exist every few blocks in all of Athens and huge new ones are being built every time I go) for the Salutation services (part of the Akathist Hymn) to the Theotokos. The Church was filled to its 500-600 seat capacity and the rest of the space was filled with standing room participants. Besides that this was one of THREE services offered every Friday night in every church in the city--one at seven, one at eight, and one at nine for working people.

So, yes--as throughout my life I try to be objective in and about all things, I agree that there is no one perfect or holy place, and no one perfect or holy faith tradition, as all countries have a polarization between believers and non-believers, and spiritual crisis and struggle between good and evil going on because it is a sign of these pagan times...

I still maintain that despite worldly problems, the *theology* and *beliefs* that I would trust for not being influenced by liberalism, would be from the Church of Greece or ROCOR.

For instance, a certain trend seemed to be starting for a while, when an American Orthodox priest said that we do not need to believe in the bodily assumption of our Lady Theotokos. My husband and I were troubled by this stand against what we had intrinsically believed and been taught all our lives and we approached a monastic Abess in Greece about it. The shocked expressions should have said it all, but the monastic Abess of the well known monastery that houses the body of one of the most miraculous saints the Orthodox church has ever known, went on to say that for an Orthodox to *NOT* believe in the bodily assumption of our Lady was akin to heresy.

And by the way, I do not get my 'ideas' about things I observe from any body such as the Old Calendar Church of Greece, and to imply so, insults my intelligence.

I get my ideas from my collective experiences and the many acquaintances I have made from being heavily involved in my church from birth. I attended Orthodox parochial school, have taught Orthodox catechism, have translated and edited Orthodox books for our theological school, have been a member of different parishes, have met all our archbishops and many priests, have a close relationship with a monastery in Greece of St. Nektarios, have been to confessions with an Athonite monastic elder, have read many books, etc...so am I not entitled to draw upon my own conclusions from a lifetime of experiences?!?

(I really hate having to always give my Orthodox resume to other Orthodox :p )

So, are we finished yet?!?

I most certainly hope so. :rolleyes:

Wishing you a good day...
In Christ,
Alice

P.S. I hope that you don't also take your wife to task on everything she says...such debate generally doesn't endear us women you know.... we being from another planet from men and all!

Alex,

I would have to beg to differ with you on this. In my eastern upbringing, and in what I have read, there is only heaven and hell (or hades, if you prefer). Upon our passing those deemed unworthy are comitted to hell, everyone else passes into heaven.

Jesus said to the sinner, "today you will be with me in paradise." He did not say, "you will be with me in paradise, but only after you've been cleansed of your sins."

Additionally, Jesus taught that there exists a chasm between heaven and hell which cannot be crossed.

mike

Dear Mike,

This is exactly what I mean by 'muddled sea of different beliefs and theologies'.

It has almost become like the 'belief du jour' when it comes to what Orthodox believe about prayers for the dead and the afterlife.

Anyway, as to what you have learned, to be precise, it is a 'forestaste' of heaven and/or hell, because there is the final judgement.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice

I wish we had that here!

Essentially I don�t disagree with you. A lot of what I have read that has come out of the diaspora I find rather strange. There are exceptions of course. Fr. Georges Florovsky for instance immediately comes to mind. Fr. Seraphim Rose (who I haven�t read much of I will admit) is probably another.

That�s just wrong.

I apologize, because I didn�t not intend to cause offense. You mentioned the ROCOR as being a body you hold in high esteem, so I was just curious which sources in Greece you trusted since the ROCOR holds many things in common with them. That is all, I can assure you I was not attempting to call your intelligence in to question.

Alice, I�m even more confused by this than your last statement. I don�t know where I questioned your intelligence or suggested that you can�t draw your own conclusions based on your own experiences. Obviously I am saying something terribly wrong and not realizing, so for that believe me I ask your forgiveness.

Alice, I certainly hope you don�t think I�m attacking you, because I�m not, and it is not what my personality is like (I don�t think). This is a discussion board, so when something comes up that is interesting, it is natural for me to want to discuss it. I have seen a few posts lately that have mentioned �dilution� of our faith or words to those effect. I�ll admit that personally that sets of alarm bells in my head based off some past experiences I�ve had.

We don�t need to discuss this any more. We are well off topic anyway.

Well in my defense, I don�t think I�m debating you, because I�m not trying to prove you wrong or convince you I�m right.

I don�t debate my wife, I learned that a long time ago. I�m actually normally a fairly easy going person believe it or not.

Andrew

Dear Mike,

You are right in saying that in Orthodox eschatology there is only Hades and Heaven.

You are wrong in saying that souls not destined for an eternity in hell go to heaven - Orthodox eschatology.

For then, what would be the point of praying for the dead that "they may be loosed from their sins?"

This position makes no sense theologically.

The Orthodox Church teaches that those who go to Hades are not necessarily there for eternity, many souls are there for purification before they are released to go to Heaven.

Alex

Dear Andrew,

Would you have the text of the Orthodox Council that defined against purgatory and, instead, set out the Orthodox doctrine in this regard? I can't seem to find it in the Rudder!

Alex

Alex,

I understand what you are saying, and in the times of the OT I would agree with you. But, the theology of praying for the dead comes from Macabees, which was before the Resurrection. In all of His teachings, Jesus never talked of a time of purification, nor do I remember any Apostolic teaching of praying for those who had fallen asleep.

Every mention of an afterlife after the Resurrection indicates an immediate passage into heaven.

Glory to Jesus Christ,

mike

DEar Mike,

Then what is the purpose of praying for the dead?

This is an ancient tradition of the Church that is still practiced and will be always.

We MUST go by BOTH Scripture and Tradition as interpreted and taught by the Church.

Otherwise, we are Protestants.

I don't mind being a protester, but a Protestant? Never . . .

In addition, your argument (although completely flawed from the beginning ), assumes that after death we are all ready to go to Heaven. How is that possible?

Maybe you are, but as for myself, I would be in doubt about that.

And I would hope that I wouldn't be "bad enough" to go to hell.

So what would become of me?

Alex

>> Then what is the purpose of praying for the dead?

So far as I can see, none.


>> This is an ancient tradition of the Church that is still practiced and will be always.
>> We MUST go by BOTH Scripture and Tradition as interpreted and taught by the Church.

I agree, but Tradition must not supplant Scripture, but enhance it.

>> In addition, your argument (although completely flawed from the beginning ), assumes that after death we are all ready to go to Heaven. How is that possible?

No, upon death none of us are worthy of heaven, and nothing we can do will ever make us so. But the cleansing of the spirit need not be a lengthy affair, or do you believe that God is incapable of healing in the blink of an eye?

Also, you are putting earthly terms (time) to a place which is beyond time (heaven).

Glory to Jesus Christ!

mike

Dear Mike,

May I ask if you are Catholic or Orthodox or . . .?

Who is to decide when Tradition supplants Scripture? And are you saying the Church is in error when it prescribes prayer for the dead and indeed prays assiduously for the dead in her liturgy daily, weekly and at specific times of the year?

God can do what He wants at any time, of course!

God the Son did not have to become Man in Jesus Christ to save us - but He did.

You are the one insisting on your own interpretation of Scripture, Tradition and what the Church has always done and taught in this regard.

Alex

>> May I ask if you are Catholic or Orthodox or . . .?

Byzantine


>> Who is to decide when Tradition supplants Scripture? And are you saying the Church is in error when it prescribes prayer for the dead and indeed prays assiduously for the dead in her liturgy daily, weekly and at specific times of the year?

Tradition is a living, breathing doctrine, not one cut in stone 1700 years ago. It must constantly be examined and questioned. It may be found to be just and proper, or it may be determined to be in error.

If you feel that it is never wrong, then what of the church's teaching against cremation? From what has been explained to me, the church forbades it because the body is required for the resurrection. If this teacing is true, then the church has just condemed many of our martrys to no resurrection.


>> God the Son did not have to become Man in Jesus Christ to save us - but He did.

Ah, but the teaching of the fathers of the church state that the Incarnation had to happen, that the sacrifice which Jesus made could only be done by someone who was both God and man.


>> You are the one insisting on your own interpretation of Scripture, Tradition and what the Church has always done and taught in this regard.

I am insisting on nothing. I freely admit that I could be wrong...then again, I could be right. If we do not question and challenge then wrongs will never be righted. Icons would not exist. Arianism might be the rule of the day, or Gnosticism. The church would still be persecuting the Jews.

Slava Issusu Christu!

mike

Dear Mike,

The Fathers did not intend to limit God's Power in that - they also said that if man had not sinned in the Garden of Eden, that God would have wanted to become Man anyway.

As for cremation, that is certainly not on a par with something like Eschatology and, really, you've got to be kidding here!

The Church has always prayed for the dead and it teaches that such prayer helps bring the souls of those who are not yet ready for heaven closer to God.

This ABSOLUTELY means that the dead are therefore not yet in heaven (time-wise, who knows?) and and that they can therefore not be in an eternal hell.

The Catholic and Orthodox Church absolutely teach this and practice this.

Do you know better than the Church?

Also, what does it mean to be "Byzantine?

Alex

Once again remember, God's People prayed for the deceased even before the Incarnation. This can easily be seen in 2 Macabees Chapter 12. Naturally this is one of the key reasons that the Protestants removed it from their partial (incomplete) Bibles. People of the True Faith have always prayed for those that have fallen asleep.

Also, remember that Prayer is not limited by time or space.

You're on a website called "Byzantine Forum" and you ask what Byzantine is? Now you must be jesting.

mike