www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Canonical status of ROCOR

Actually joining ROCOR always sort of bothered me in the back of my mind. You see, I was formerly a Roman Catholic and that religion is recognized by almost everyone as being important and valid. Then I join ROCOR which is recognized by hardly anyone and rather insignificant as faras the rest of the world goes.

But ROCOR seemed like an authentic Russian Orthodox Church with priest chanting services in Slavonic with beards. OLd Ikons and burning incense. Blazing candles and old babushkas. It had everything that seemed to smack of the Old Country Church environment. I thought to myself this was the Church to which Dosteyvesky belonged, to which Tolstoy was excommunicated from, the Church of Taras Bulba and Anna Karenina. The Church in which Pierre and Natasha were married in and Fedor Pavlovitch was buried in. This Church was Russia outside of Russia!

Yet, now that Ive been a member for a while, the glitter of Russia has faded and I seem to desire something more deep and universal. How will it turn out, only Heaven knows. I love Orthodoxy but desire unity and order in Church life to which ROCOR seems to be divided on. The OCA is too Americanized for me with their pews which confine the gloris of standing reverantly before God and their english liturgies which take the mystery from the services.
I wonder what the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is like? Not that I would think of leaving ROCOR officially, but I so desire a Church that has the simplicity of the old world ones and the pius faith as well.

Robert K.

I never knew "canonical" equated to public and majority opinion, stereotypes, and not the truth.

Could someone tell me if the iconoclast so-called "official" church along with their so-called "Seventh Ecumenical Synod" of 754 which was approved by 350 so-called "Orthodox" bishops fit this boards dominant definition of "canonical"?

Or would it be fair to say that not only was "official" "world Orthodoxy" at the time not canonical, but also heretical - and that the only real Orthodox were the ones scorned by most, "offically" "deposed", and sent crawling back into the catacombs?

As I watch Robert K. struggle with his lingering papal mindset to prove to everyone that they are canonical by demonstrating that "world Orthodoxy" accepts them, and cannot help but think the only reason they may be "canonical" is because they are NOT accepted by the much feared "world Orthodoxy".

I have a special message for Robert. If you do not believe as the ROCOR, then don't commune there. Loving your Russian heritage is good, but that hardly equates to the unity of the faith they seek.

If you are struggling with unity and how it applies to the Church, and would like to have many of your questions answered, I recommend this, it will either throw you over the edge or repulse you. Either way, it will probably make you decisive.

Against False Union [orthodox.truepath.com]

Just my humble opinion, and I mean no offense to Robert and am very happy he is in an environment (ROCOR) where he is exposed to truth.

[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Oh I grow so tired of all this "resistance" talk one hears so often from traditionalist groups. How on earth are common people suppost to be able to determine what is heresy or not?

So what would OOD have us do, be in communion with no one? Whats the point about Maximos the confessore, he wasnt the last Orthodox person left in the world, as some imply. Neither was Mark of Ephesis.

If OOD wants to be the last Orthodox Christian left in the world fighting in resistance to everything then so let him. I tired of that kind of sectarian mentality anyway. Id rather be with all the other "lost souls" then resist everything all the time. I like a reat deal of what ROCOR is and stands for but I do not agree with her on everything.

Robert K.

Robert K,

I do not feel I am a "resister", I am certain that I am merely following that which was always followed, and that is enough.

My small little humble church is complete by itself. I have no motivation to sacrifice anything nor do I feel insecure or care if I am accepted by the world.

Why is it so important for people to feel "accepted"?

When Christ was on earth, many of the Jewish leaders had recognized who He was, but they did not proclaim it because they dreaded facing the consequences of this confession. "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God" (John 12:42—43).

Today, we see the same thing happening. Many people understand what is going on, but they do not admit it (many times not even to themselves) in order that they may not lose worldly goods, the respect of men, followers, positions, salaries, which they preserve by a policy of submission with or without protest on their part. These people are overwhelmed with fear that they might be "put out of the synagogue." and not accepted by everyone. Thus, they deny Christ in deed by remaining faithful to the high priests who crucified Him and crucify Him.

This is what you should fear most!

[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Darn that OCA! They actually think understanding what they're praying is more important that mystical gobblydeegook! What's WRONG with them??!!

;-)

In Christ,

anastasios

(Love Greek Chant, am learning Greek, but still prefer English liturgies because I feel mystical when I actually understand what's going on and feel uplifted by the theological hymns!)

Today, we see the same thing happening. Many people understand what is going on, but they do not admit it (many times not even to themselves) in order that they may not lose worldly goods, the respect of men, followers, positions, salaries, which they preserve by a policy of submission with or without protest on their part. These people are overwhelmed with fear that they might be "put out of the synagogue." and not accepted by everyone. Thus, they deny Christ in deed by remaining faithful to the high priests who crucified Him and crucify Him.

This is what you should fear most!

[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ][/QB][/QUOTE]

You see OOD, this is the basic problem I have with you traditionalist Orthodox: You sound like a bunch of Holy Rollers!
You basically use the same tactics such as emphasis on being a tiny reminant admist a see of corruption and luckwarmness in the backdrop of the up coming apocolypse who signs are already at hand. This is the same kind of stuff one would hear out of any type of protestant evangelical or fundementalist sect. In fact, its similar to what our Puritan American forefathers believed. Isolate yourself from everyone and ye will be saved. REject the world and its evils to gain salvation along with a tiny handful of Christ rue followers. Not to follow you and your golden way is to be lumped together with this wicked world to which is fast approaching judgment.

Yes, I preffer to belong to an institutional Church which is at least known by everyboduy and dosnt have to resort to street preaching scare tactics and an isolationist cult mentality in order to get recognition.

Why do I want to be accepted? WEll mabye because Im a human being and all human being want to bleong to something simply because we all want to be loved. THis is simple psychology. I live and work in the veryday ordinary world of 21st century American society and have to adapt myselff somewhat to its ways without necessarly comprimising my faith (Which dosnt have to be). I think that for who I am and my situation I am a devout person and, while mabye not a saint, am at least hoping for Gods mercy and forgivness for any wrongs that I do. This is the big factor in life for me, I want to be where the ordinary people are. The butcher, the baker, the candle stick maker are the people that I want to see in Church with me. The good, the bad, and the ugly all packed together trying to worship God and relying on his mercy and forgivness just like me. Not perfect people by any means but people, suffering and struggling through the murky see of life with a hope that it isnt all for nothing.
Communities like yours, on the other hand are just packed with every type of self perfectionist, perfectionist, fanatic possible. They come mostly because they dont want to be like everybody else but wish they were better then everybody else. In fact they think they are!

So yes, I guess that I have the same human failings and weaknesses as my 6 billion other fellow men. I want to belong to something! I dont want to live isolated in a cave like some hermit so that I am not exposed to this evil world. I want to be in the world with my sleeves rooled up high trenchin through the mud and slush of society trying to do my best to please God and live in brother hood with my fellow man.

Mabye its not your royal way but its the way in which I follow and, at my lifes end, Ill die just like you and well see whats what. Mabye youl be right or mabye I will, but either way, we both tryed to do things the way we saw fit.

Yes, Im a sinner, the worst of all because I choose to like everybody else, the common people that is. Why, as honest Abe used to say, God must have loved the common people since he made so many of them. These are the true heart and soul of Christiandom. Im no better then them and I dont pretend to so why should you or anyone else.

Robert K.

Thats your opinion if you preffer. But I dont like Church services in english prefferably. This is my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are to yours. Yes, I am mocked by many for not wanting to have everything Americanized but thats my lot in life I suppose.

Robert K.

Hmmmm....

Liturgy must engage the individual. Many of the people know chants or prayers in the "offical" language of the Church and so are engaged in worship. Others may be transported by the etherial language or sounds of the prayers and chants, and they, too, are engaged. However, for those who do not find their senses uplifted by a language they do not understand, then the liturgy does not engage them and they are the less for it.

In my parish we use English and Arabic. When I preached last Sunday I used those two languages plus Hebrew and Greek -- and I made sure that I translated everything -- even the Arabic. Many of our younger parishoners do not understand Arabic and so we have to use English to engage them.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Glory to Jesus Christ!\

Dear Brother Robert K,

As a former member of ROCOR , I agree with you. When I initially came into ROCOR , I was attracted to the Russian traditions in Liturgical and personal oractices---oddly enough the very good English translations that ROCOR has available made my spiritual growth possible. However with the change of Bishops, ROCOR changed dramatically---telling my children they could have no contact with their Orthodox God Parents because they were not ROCOR---Although we lived many miles from an ac5tive ROCOR Parish (about 200 miles either direction, we were told that they could not attend other Orthodox Churches other than ROCOR and Met Cyprian's TOCOG. The result my 5 children and 5 grandchildren almost left the Orthodox Faith as a result of this.

We changed jurisdictions to an Antiochian Parish that was very traditional in Orthodox practice---English services with good translation, Orthros Vespers, Divine Liturgy---no pews, good spiritual direction. In short the kids are happy, we are a part of "world Orthodoxy" and the judgementalism that we experienced in ROCOR was gone, in its place spirituality, prayer, fasting, and spiritual growth.

Best of Luck in your search for what God wants for you!

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Im curious, to which diocese did you belong? Most ROCOR people just do whatever they please on the matter of attending other jurisdictions. AS far as a know, such fanatical behavior is usually reserved for convert clergy with over zealous attitudes and is not common for most of the Church in general.

Robert K

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Brother Robert K,

We were under His Grace Bishop Gabriel of the Diocese of New York and the Eastern States---Texas is under that diocese oddly enough. The directive to not take communion other than in ROCOR and TOCOG came directly from His Grace, it was issued in a Clergy Conference shortly after he was consecrated Bishop. In fact the directive was very specific that if you had previously been given permission to commune in any other jurisdiction, we were to stop doing so immediately. My family lasted about a year and a half following that directive before we left for the Antiochian Archdiocese.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Robert,
Have you ever visited the OCA parishes out west? Out here the OCA isnt quite the same as it is back east. In the Indiana listserv, Bishop Tikhon has certainly voiced his strong support for ROCOR, and has said that laity in his diocese are welcome to commune at any ROCOR parish if they have permission. Bishop Tikhon has also said on the listserv that he has not consecrated any parishes with pews (he doesn't like them-there was a strong editorial in the Diocesan Paper about them sometime ago, written by a priest whose name I can't recall).

For example, there is an OCA parish out here I'm well acquainted with that has a 3hr. Sat. night vigil every week, 530 matins and 530 vespers daily, and is on the old calender!

May God preserve and protect the ROCOR!

In Christ,

Michael

Wow, he did something like that? Vladyko Gavrial always seemed like a fairly moderate fellow to me. Well, its good that your in the Syrian Church anyway. Hopefully all this silly stuff will cease soon!

Robert K.