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#77141 02/09/05 06:29 PM
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The UOC-KP has not included the anathemas in its Triodion, not do I see them in the Triodion printed in Moscow 1896. Where would one find them, if not in the Triodion, a full Arkhieratikon?

Can anyone provide me with a copy in either Ukrainian or OCS, please?

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

#77142 02/09/05 06:33 PM
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Dear Andriju,

Since the UOC-KP has been excommunicated by world Orthodoxy itself, perhaps this would explain a certain, shall we say, reticence on its part in hurling anathemas at others? wink

Alex

#77143 02/09/05 06:43 PM
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Pane Sashko,

It seems to me this only serves to multiply anathemas. wink

Care to take a stab at explaining why this ritual disappeared from Eastern Catholic Churches? Perhaps anathemas were viewed as something for Rome to handle? Or perhaps it was viewed as too "orthodox"? And we all know Eastern Catholics aren't 'orthodox'. :p

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

#77144 02/09/05 07:09 PM
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Dorohyj Pane Andriju!

I think you are absolutely rite - that service disappeared because it was deemed "too Orthodox."

One possible reason why it does is because it tends to focus on the heresies of the East (and wasn't the name of Pope Honorius in the anathemas as well at one point, I don't know if it still is in the Orthodox service).

Alex

#77145 02/09/05 09:59 PM
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I think they should remove Barlaam the Calabrian from the anathema list!!! If they look hard enough they can find redeeming factors I'm sure. But more seriously, I thought if anathema service was included in the Sunday of Orthodoxy they read general anathemas, not naming specific people. Could someone explain? Thanks, Vito

#77146 02/10/05 02:47 AM
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Reading anathemas? confused

How charming! :rolleyes:

An anathema is not only a formal excommunication/ban but could also mean putting God's just curse on someone (I suppose that in this case--it is for their 'heresy') but in any case, I think that it is pretty heavy stuff . frown

It may have been in vogue to do a millenium ago, but I think that this is one 'tradition' that really must GO! frown

#77147 02/10/05 02:15 PM
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Dear Vito,

Barlaam was a nominalist and so deserved to be anathematized.

An heresy is always the error developed by a human person - just like "evil" doesn't exist as a generality but as something that comes from a personified being, namely, the devil.

There is a great difference between the heretics of old and today's "heretics" (who don't like to be called that wink ).

The heretics of old were often holy men who posited their views on aspects of theology that had NOT yet been defined by the Church.

When they were condemned at a council, they sometimes recanted but at other times they insisted on their own way.

Today's "heretics" know fully well where the Church has always stood on a number of theological and moral issues - and contradict the Church anyway.

Then there is the interesting matter of rehabilitation of those who are considered heretical by another Church etc.

There are those who believe that Nestorius was not an heretic and was condemned due to misunderstanding of his position and/or church politics.

Nestorius is, of course, honoured as a saint and doctor by the Assyrian Church that denies Nestorius ever was a "Nestorian."

"Nestorianism" is the name of the heresy that was originally believed by everyone (except the Assyrian Church) to have been developed by Nestorius.

Nestorianism remains the name of the heresy that in Christ there are two "Persons" - even though Nestorius is now considered by some to not have been the originator of that heresy.

There are those who say Nestorianism really emanated from Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Should the entire Church one day decide to lift the anathema against Nestorius (I don't know how, but it is possible), then the heresy of Nestorianism will still be called that - due to long use of the term etc.

From the Byzantine point of view, while Severus of Antioch and Dioscoros of Alexandria are anathematized - there is a distinction drawn since they were not really anathematized for "heresy" but for bad behaviour etc.

And the discussions between the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches have shed so much light on Alexandrian theology that there are indeed Orthodox parishes that simply leave out the names of the above two and other Oriental saints and teachers when naming the respective heretics of old.

However, I think that dropping the connection between heresies and the persons associated with them would be wrong.

A heresy is first and foremost an expression of the sin of pride in being unwilling to submit to the Church's clear and forceful teaching on a subject.

And sins are committed by people, not abstractions.

Alex

#77148 02/10/05 10:35 PM
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Dear Alex, There seems to be some recent scholarship that contends that Barlaam's accusations of "messalianism" against the hesychasts, had some real basis. I, unfortunately, don't know more than that, but if it were true perhaps it might call for reassesment of his status. But thanks for the your reply; always something for me to try and digest. Vito

#77149 02/10/05 11:19 PM
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Dear Vito,

I'm all for rehabilitating whoever! smile

There are those who say that Pelagius was not the heretic he was made out to be or that he was the founder of "Pelagianism."

Some in the U.S. venerate him as "St Morgan of Wales."

When the Oriental Orthodox Church of Georgia joined with Byzantine Orthodoxy, a number of its saints who were condemned in life by Byzantine theologians came to slowly be venerated throughout the Byzantine Orthodox East.

St David of Garesja was called by Greek Orthodox theologians of his day that "putrefaction from Georgia" and was branded a heretic.

Today, he is in the universal Orthodox calendar, if I'm not mistaken. Although no reference is made to his past . . .

Also, the Czech Orthodox have always had a steady stream of Hussite converts who continue to honour the memory of their saint, Jan Hus.

St Nikolai Velimirovich, the Serbian Orthodox hagiographer, actually wrote a book about Hus which he entitled, "Saint John Hus" and the Czech Orthodox Church has published it last year . . .

Anglicans who become Orthodox, especially Western Orthodox (and also who become RC) continue to venerate their St Charles, King and Martyr.

John Henry Cardinal Newman and Ronald Knox venerated King Charles privately even after becoming RC's (and King Henry VI but he was an RC after all).

Newman always kept by his bed the "Preces Privatae" of Lancelot Andrewes, the Anglican divine who acknowledged Rome, but also affirmed that the Anglican church was every bit as "Catholic!"

Alex

#77150 02/11/05 01:17 AM
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Almost sounds like one church's heretic is another church's saint. wink Nothing ever simple!!LOL

#77151 02/11/05 02:16 AM
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Vito, I think St. Gregory Palamas was right on target in his debate with Barlaam.

I don't know what recent scholarship you are referring to, but the likes of Pelikan, Meyendorff, and the Oxford scholars Kallistos Ware and Nicholas Gendle say otherwise and I agree with them.

But the Second Sunday of the Great Fast, following Orthodoxy Sunday, who do we as Christians of the Constantinopolitan tradition commemorate? Not Barlaam...but St. Gregory Palamas. St. Gregory, pray for us sinners.

#77152 02/11/05 05:55 PM
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Diak, Here's a link to an article to which I was referring. I certainly wasn't suggesting any disparagement of St. Gregory. I probably should have kept quiet since I don't know that much about the argument, but I was just wondering if there might have been problems of understanding between the two sides. Vito
oops, forgot the link lol:
http://www.danuvius.orthodoxy.ru/Mac_sum.htm

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