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Slava Isusu Chrisut!

Hello every one, i was reading a old post about the death of byzantine catholicism, on page 7 of Faith and Worship. It revolved around purgatory and other roman beliefs.

As Eastern Catholics how are we supposed to look into this subject, and all the other subjects, that are a confrontation, between the east and west, such as purgatory, original sin, the Marian Doctrines, the Papal Doctrines.

Are we as Eastern Catholics supposed to accept the Roman beliefs of these subjects, or are we to remain faithfull to the traditional views of the east?

Yours in Christ
Daniel
IC XC NI KA

Page 70 not 7

It seems to me that where differences exist we have only two options:
Either they are contradictory and we must choose one and reject the other or they can in fact be harmonized, and the essential truth sorted from the way that it has been expressed.
If a Catholic it is the second, an invitation to dialogue, that is our only option. This requires mutual good will, not always in abundance in religious discussions.
I elsewhere on the forum participated in a frustrating discussion about purgatory. If one gets past the bad holy card art and the juridical emphasis on the western side of the controversy the essence of the thing is that a] the soul's spiritual growth into the image of Christ does not cease at death, and b] these souls can benefit from our prayers. I doubt the most obtuse easterner could object to these truths but they and their Latin foes prefer to concentrate on the divisive way these principles have been expressed in their respective traditions [though not exclusively so, see Catherine of Genoa's writings on Purgatory for a more palatable presentation of the doctrine]

Dear StBenedictRule,

Eastern Catholics have always believed in the "pith and substance" of what the later Latin doctrines affirm.

The Latin doctrines are, in fact, a response to earlier Latin doctrines that necessitated the development of new Latin doctrines . . .

For example, the notion of a penal Original Sin, never accepted in the East, necessitated the development of a doctrine of the Immaculate Conception - otherwise one would be left with the view that the Mother of God was tainted by sin - something that would be intolerable.

There is a point that is sometimes raised that I think is a valid one with respect to the way the Latin Church is moving toward more Eastern theology.

But IF it accepts the Eastern perspective on Original Sin, which some argue the CCC already has, THEN this would make the Latin doctrines on the Immaculate Conception (and the Assumption) unnecessary and even redundant.

Alex

Doesnt the east believe in the Assumption under a different name of the "Dormition"?

I for one as a byzantine catholic dont believe in the Latin Perspective of certain doctrines like Original Sin, and Purgatory i subscribe to the eastern views of original since and final theosis rather then purgatory. Im trying Easternize my sprituality and theological point of view,so i needed the advice. thanks

In Christ
Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Yes, indeed, the East has always celebrated the Feast of Her Dormition or "falling-asleep."

The West underlines her Assumption into heaven.

For the East, there is no question but that the Mother of God did die - the matter was left open in the dogmatic definition of the Assumption.

The East celebrates the "Conception of St Anne" or the Holy Conception of the Mother of God in the womb of St Anne.

This means that the Theotokos was sanctified at her conception - which allows for a liturgical feast since only the feast of saints may be celebrated.

And it means that, as a result of her sanctification, the effects of Original Sin were highly mitigated in the life of the Theotokos.

She felt no pain in giving birth to Christ, for example. And her death was as light and sweet as can be - a "falling asleep."

That she was taken body and soul to heaven is celebrated in the liturgical prayers of the Feast as well.

Alex

The Assumption according to RC Theology is when she was assumed into heaven body and sole am i correct? if im the Orthodox do believe this to dont they? or am i confused about some things.

In Christ
Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Both RC and Orthodox positions are that the Mother of God was taken by Her Son, body and soul, to heaven.

Some Orthodox believe that a dissident opinion on this is possible, but that would contradict Orthodox liturgical prayers - and so we might chalk it up to "creeping modernism."

Alex

Dear Daniel,

Both RC and Orthodox positions are that the Mother of God was taken by Her Son, body and soul, to heaven.

======
Alex my fried, I respectfully disagree with the above. Though, because I'm not 100% sure, I am therefore up for correction.

We Orthodox Catholics see the 'Dormition' and the 'Assumption' as two separate and distinct events. Probably about three days apart. On the Orthodox Catholic Icons of the 'Dormition' you will always see Christ standing next to the body of his mother holding an infant. The infant represents the soul of the 'Theotokos'. Tradition teaches us that Thomas arrived later and wanted to see and venerate the body of the Theotokos. When her tomb was opened her body was gone and a flower laid where her body once was. This is the reason we bless flowers at that time. Tradition also tells us that it was the angels, not Christ who took her body into heaven.

So, upon her death, it was Christ who took the Blessed Mothers soul to heaven. The angels came later and took her body.

Correct me if I'm wrong Father Thomas.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

You are right, of course, but I was only referring to the "bottom line" that unites both East and West - that the Theotokos IS in heaven with Her Son in both body and soul.

The Western tradition is that the Theotokos reposed on the 13th of August - and her Assumption took place on the 15th.

There are still some RC countries where the 13th of every month is celebrated for her repose.

In fact, the apparitions of Fatima occurred on the 13th of the month.

The "Friday the 13th" bad luck superstition is based on the arrest of the Knights Templar on Friday, October 13th and has no relation to this tradition.

And OUR, yes, OUR Orthodox liturgical services ( ) for the Dormition are so beautiful and move from her repose, to the funeral dirges to her being taken up by Her Son.

It makes me so happy to partake, in my own heretical way, of course, in the Orthodox liturgical tradition!

Who da Man?
You da Man!
You da ORTHOman!

God bless,

Alex

[And OUR, yes, OUR Orthodox liturgical services ( ) for the Dormition are so beautiful and move from her repose, to the funeral dirges to her being taken up by Her Son.

It makes me so happy to partake, in my own heretical way, of course, in the Orthodox liturgical tradition!]

Glad to hear that Alex. Means you are half way home. Perhaps some day you will come all the way home and not only celebrate, but once again practice, the Orthodox faith that revolves around and ceated all those beautiful services.

OrthoMan

So what is the actuall differance between the Dormition and the Assumption, arnt they in essence the same thing?

Alex, I admire your patience and long-suffering!!!!!!!! We Irish (Orthodox or not) would not be so charitable!!!!!!!

So what is the actuall differance between the Dormition and the Assumption, arnt they in essence the same thing?
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No. The Dormition is the falling asleep of the Theotokos. The Assumption is the taking of her body into heaven.

OrthoMan

Bob,

With all due respect, we ALREADY HAVE the fullness of Orthodoxy. Our liturgical and theological inheritance is identical. We most certainly do practice the Orthodox Faith. Our Orthodox Faith is centered not around our wonderful Divine Services but on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We pray not that East and West give up what is true and holy in each Tradition but that we repent the sin that has caused the division and seek forgiveness from one another so that we may again become one in Christ.

For the peace of the whole world, for the welfare of the holy churches of God and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord.

Lord, have mercy!

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