|
1 members (1 invisible),
288
guests, and
22
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,295
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,103
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,103 |
Dear Friends,
Could someone explain to me their understanding of whether it is permissible for an Eastern Catholic to not attend a Catholic Divine Liturgy in preferrence for an Orthodox Divine Liturgy on any givne Sunday? I'm not talking about emergency or exceptional cases. I mean one weekend, if I'd just like to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy rather than the Catholic one: is this permissible? Would one who did this still be in good standing with his Church?
Thank you
Wm. Der-Ghazarian
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788 |
The canonists and the church lawyers will have their response to this. Let me give you what I think is a pastoral response that is good for all - Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.
The Catholic Church does a very good job at witnessing the universal nature of the Church, maybe better than the Orthodox or Protestantism. This can be overdone, however, if it comes at teh expense of the principle of Christian fellowship and community. In other words, a Christian has some obligation to settle down and enter deeply into the life of a particular Christian fellowship (i.e, go to your parish). Church hopping, understandable after a change of residence or for a period when young, etc., is not the ideal.
Catholicism, for the most part understands this and we have many vibrant Catholic parishes. To a small degree, however, sometimes people overly focused on Catholicism universal nature, seek the parish churches as 'Mass stations' -- feel free to attend which ever you want, a different one every week, the important thing is to fullfill 'Sunday obligation'.
Certainly one can go to the other extreme -- actign as if 'only my parish church counts'. Attending Liturgy at other parishes can be an affirmation of the universality of the Church.
The balance is one should fully embrace a particular Christian fellowship. Then one can occassionally, as circumstances warrent (travel, schedules, activities with friends, etc) attend other parishes. Once can certainly visit other parishes to share the enrichment they may bring (and further, bring that enrichment back to your parish!).
Axios
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943 |
Why worry about all these silly legalism mumbo jumbo? The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a sister Church, so that means we're related some what, especially through Holy Mysteries and Apostolic Succession.
It's more important to go to a Church that have valid Mysteries and WORSHIP God as commanded by Him in the 10 Commandments, "Keep a Holy Sabbath Day."
I, myself, go to the Orthodox Church every Sundays when we, Byzantine Catholic, only have it two Sundays a month. I'm welcomed in the Orthodox Church there and I'm treated as one of them and their families. I'm on the mailing list, I donate some money, I help with their annual fundraiser Lebanese dinners, etc. I take their religion classes, etc. I am one of them. But I always am clear to them that I am BYZANTINE CATHOLIC and will remain loyality to Pope of Rome, they don't get bothered by that at all.
If you want to go to to Orthodox Church, GO! It's awesome to know that the traditions remain intact, the customs, the people are great.
You won't find "latinized" liturgies that many Byzantine Catholic Churchs are too darn wimpy to fight against. You won't find many "cold" parishers there that you would find in a Roman Church that can affect the attitude of Byz. Cath. Etc. You will be warmly welcomed there.
This Orthodox priest makes so much effort in improving his sign language so he can communicate with me (although I can speak and read lips). And some folks there know sign language. That's AWESOME! So many STUPID Catholic Churches won't ever make such an effort for ONE person, especially a DEAF ONE!!! That's one of the things that I feel very very resentful towards the Catholic Church, especially the Roman ones.
I feel strongly that this Orthodox parish care a lot for me and I've known these people for years. They're just simply wonderful.
As of this September, our fellowship will have Divine Liturgy every first 3 Sundays of each month. So I'm coming to an unfortunate and difficult conclusion that I will have to cut down going to the Orthodox Church. It's too much to go to 2 Divine Liturgies in ONE DAY! I will miss these folks and I KNOW that these folks and their priest will MISS seeing me!
Oh, Alas, I do WISH that we (Catholic/Orthodox) will reunite...some day...so I won't have to deal with this dilemma.
Ohhh well.....
But, do GO! Sometimes, I think that legalism gets in the way of Christian piety and we shouldn't let it. Follow your heart and God. That's important.
God Bless.
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 75 |
From Wm
>>>Could someone explain to me their understanding of whether it is permissible for an Eastern Catholic to not attend a Catholic Divine Liturgy in preferrence for an Orthodox Divine Liturgy on any given Sunday? I'm not talking about emergency or exceptional cases. I mean one weekend, if I'd just like to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy rather than the Catholic one: is this permissible? Would one who did this still be in good standing with his Church?<<<
The standard Eastern Orthodox answer would be "No." Or possibly, "Ask your priest." For us, worshipping only with those with whom we are in communion is very important.
For the Roman See, however, who recognizes the Eastern Church and Her Holy Mysteries as valid sacraments, such a matter as 'being in communion with' should hardly be a consideration, [although you would not, of course, receive communion that Sunday... Orthodox priests do not commune those whom they do not know...]
Back in my pre-Christian days, I attended a mass locally, and was very impressed with the spiritual goings on that were palpably present in the service, although taking communion did not seem like all that big a deal. Some years later, when I attended my first [Russian] Orthodox liturgy, I could sense no such spiritual goings on - All I could discern was clarity and transparence - And, of course, music to die for, and a service the likes of which I had never even dreamed!
So one would think that, given the Papal desire for two lunged ecumenicism, Roman [& Eastern] Catholic attendance of Eastern Orthodox liturgies would be encouraged... I know that the Antiochians encourage their members, especially when travelling, to attend services in other jurisdictional parishes with whom we are in communion, although in town, the full participation in our own parish life is, of course, top priority...
On the other hand, six months ago or so, a ROCOR Hieromonk visited an Eastern Catholic parishoner in a hospital whose sister had asked him to come. His doctor had given him 3-5 weeks to live with advanced liver cancer, and his repeated calls to his parish had gone unanswered. He is now in recovery and remission, and has been received into the ROCOR Church by chrismation, simply because someone dropped the pastoral ball... Shepherding the flock is so important!
You just never know ahead of time how things are going to work out...
geo
"Be not troubling of you the heart..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Blaisdell:
>>>The standard Eastern Orthodox answer would be "No." Or possibly, "Ask your priest." For us, worshipping only with those with whom we are in communion is very important.<<<
However do you get any converts with that attitude?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 75 |
From StuartK >posted by George Blaisdell: >>>The standard Eastern Orthodox answer would be "No." Or possibly, "Ask your priest." For us, worshipping only with those with whom we are in communion is very important.<<< >However do you get any converts with that attitude? Blind luck, brute force and ignorance!  Actually, I did not see how that statement could seem to mean what I had not intended... What I meant was, we do not worship in churches with whom we are not in communion. Hence, we would not go to a Roman Catholic Church, for instance, and receive communion, nor do we give communion to those who are not in communion with our Church. I sure didn't mean that we don't let anyone into the Church with whom we are not in communion. We just don't give them communion until they are entered into the church... Like me - I can attend services only, but not receive the Body and the Blood of our Lord... Until baptism and chrismation. The attitude part is one that is exclusivistic - And inclusivistic too, for that matter. Whether one is in communion or not in communion is a really important matter for us. We simply do not worship outside the Church [as defined by communion] - It is forbidden by canon, I should think, though I could not come up with which one... Are the Roman communions allowed to worship in heterodox [ie non-communion] churches? I really did think it was a cannonical matter... And I could be wrong... geo
"Be not troubling of you the heart..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,103
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,103 |
Dear Friends,
Thank you all for informitive and supportive replys. Let me try to clarify a few things so that I'm not misunderstood.
First off, in reply to Axios: thanks for the feedback. I am active in my parish and attend it regularly. I agree with you that people shouldn't just bounce around from parish to parish. What I am referring to is visiting "other parishes to share the enrichment they may bring (and further, bring that enrichment back to your parish!)," exactly as you said.
Thanks also to "spdundas." I personally don't think of Church law as "mumbo jumbo." But I can appreciate your advice to stay far from becoming legalistic. I do appreciate your encouragement and suggestions. Actually, I have visited Orthodox Churches (Armenian and Byzantine) numerous times before, but I normally will attend a Catholic Divine Liturgy on a Saturday just to ensure that I haven't violated Church law.
This is the question I was really asking, is this necessary to fulfill the Church's law if I take this law serious and do not want to violate it? Or does Eastern Catholic Canon Law allow for visiting our sister Orthodox Churches on occasion?
Thanks again,
In Christ's Light,
Wm. Der-Ghazarian
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Der-Ghazarian:
>>>Thanks also to "spdundas." I personally don't think of Church law as "mumbo jumbo." But I can appreciate your advice to stay far from becoming legalistic.<<<
It is important for everyone, Catholic and Orthodox, to recognize the reality of intercommunion. It has always existed, it never stopped, and it remains common in those places where Greek Catholics and Orthodox live in proximity to one another. It is an unavoidable fact of life in the Middle East, acknowledged by the hierarchies on both sides, who understand that it cannot be avoided and thus tolerate it. It was common in the Carpathians prior to 1947, and it is becoming more common today. It is common in the United States and Canada, especially in regard to Churches of the same ethnic affiliation. There are, to paraphrase Archbishop Vsevolod of Scopelos, thousands of Greek Catholics in Orthodox parishes, not making any effort to hide their identity, who have been there for years, are integral parts of those communities, and who receive the sacraments there, baptize their children there, and are on occasion buried there. Conversely, there are thousands of Orthodox in Greek Catholic parishes who do the same things. Communicatio in sacris is a de facto reality--maybe it's time we simply formalized it.
As to whether a Catholic can attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy for purposes of familiarization and fostering of better relations, the Catholic Church not only permits it but encourages it.
As to whether the Orthodox will let you in, I have yet to find an Orthodox parish that will turn you away.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943 |
You folks aren't getting it. If you LOVE God enough to worship Him in either a Catholic or Orthodox, go do it!
Worry more about His 3rd Commandment which is a DIVINE Commandment rather than legalistic HUMAN Church rules/canons/whateveryouwannacallit.
If you worship God in either Catholic or Orthodox, then you've fulfilled the 3rd Commandment. So let it go.
Get my point here?
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,964
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,964 |
AMEN, Brother !!! Originally posted by spdundas:
If you LOVE God enough to worship Him in either a Catholic or Orthodox, go do it!
If you worship God in either Catholic or Orthodox, then you've fulfilled the 3rd Commandment. So let it go.
Get my point here?
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,075
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,075 |
William,
I have attended an Armenian Orthodox Divine Liturgy previously. Armenians give Catholics communion, and I availed myself of the opportunity-from the Archbishop himself.
In Christ,
anastasios
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by anastasios:
>>>I have attended an Armenian Orthodox Divine Liturgy previously. Armenians give Catholics communion, and I availed myself of the opportunity-from the Archbishop himself.>>>
Assyrians will do the same.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
Originally posted by George Blaisdell:
>>>Actually, I did not see how that statement could seem to mean what I had not intended... What I meant was, we do not worship in churches with whom we are not in communion. Hence, we would not go to a Roman Catholic Church, for instance, and receive communion, nor do we give communion to those who are not in communion with our Church.<<<
Neither of those statements is absolutely true. There is a policy, of course, but that policy is flexible, subject to the oikonomia of the bishop, and sometimes of individual presbyters. As I noted in another post, intercommunion is much more common than many Orthodox (particularly converts) are willing to concede. It is unavoidable, given the history of certain countries and the intermarriage of Orthodox and Greek Catholics.
>>>I sure didn't mean that we don't let anyone into the Church with whom we are not in communion.<<<
Sorry. It DID sound like that.
>>>We just don't give them communion until they are entered into the church... Like me - I can attend services only, but not receive the Body and the Blood of our Lord... Until baptism and chrismation.<<<
You'd be so surprised. But you are a formal catechumen, and (judging from your statement above) not yet initiated. But the matter can be completely different if, say, one is a Melkite desiring to receive in an Antiochene parish (particularly in the Middle East), or a Ukrainian Greek Catholic seeking to receive in a Ukrainian Orthodox parish (there are thousands of Greek Catholics doing so on any given Sunday), or a Ruthenian desiring to receive in the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Orthodox Catholic Diocese. To quote Metropolitan Nicholas of Emissa on that subject, "There are many Greek Catholics attending Liturgy and receiving the sacraments in my parishes, and I for one am not going to put a stop sign on the Chalice".
Theory is one thing, and reality is quite another.
>>>The attitude part is one that is exclusivistic - And inclusivistic too, for that matter. Whether one is in communion or not in communion is a really important matter for us. We simply do not worship outside the Church [as defined by communion] - It is forbidden by canon, I should think, though I could not come up with which one...<<<
It's important to remember that canons in the Christian East are of two types--dogmatic and pastoral. The latter, of which this is one, are really nothing more than guidelines for the bishop, who is still bound by his obligation to use his discernment in each and every case.
>>>Are the Roman communions allowed to worship in heterodox [ie non-communion] churches?<<<
Actually, they are allowed to receive the sacraments from any Apostolic Church--Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Church of the East. The Eastern Code, for one, leaves the matter entirely up to the individual conscience of the believer.
>>>I really did think it was a cannonical matter... And I could be wrong...<<<
It is, and it isn't. In the Christian East, oikonomia frequently overrides canons.
geo[/QB]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
Baptism and "Sacramental Economy" - An Agreed Statement of The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation - St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, Crestwood, New York - June 3, 1999 https://www.byzcath.org/faith/documents/19990603-NAOCTC.html This joint statement specifically refers to Baptism, and concludes: The fact that our churches share and practice this same faith and teaching requires that we recognize in each other the same baptism and thus also recognize in each other, however "imperfectly," the present reality of the same Church. By God's gift we are each, in St. Basil's words, "of the Church."
We find that this mutual recognition of the ecclesial reality of baptism, in spite of our divisions, is fully consistent with the perennial teaching of both churches... The statement makes this rather strong remark against the theory of "sacramental economy". The influential theory of "sacramental economy" propounded in the Pedalion commentaries does not represent the tradition and perennial teaching of the Orthodox Church; it is rather an eighteenth-century innovation motivated by the particular historical circumstances operative in those times. It is not the teaching of scripture, of most of the Fathers, or of later Byzantine canonists, nor is it the majority position of the Orthodox churches today. Does anyone know if this statement has had any traction? What are the implications of the latter quote for intercommunion? djs [ 08-05-2002: Message edited by: djs ]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
novice O.Carm. Member
|
|
novice O.Carm. Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042 |
Der-Ghazarian,
Here is how I would answer your question.
If there is an Eastern Catholic Church in your area then I would believe that you should attend this over the Orthodox Church.
If, for some reason, there is no Eastern Catholic Church avaliable on a given Sunday then I would frist off decide if I wished to recieve communion, if the answer is yes then I would attend a Roman Catholic Church, as I know there will be no impediment there.
If the answer is no, then I would take up this issue with my spiritual father.
And, while what StuartK says (Actually, they are allowed to receive the sacraments from any Apostolic Church--Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Church of the East. The Eastern Code, for one, leaves the matter entirely up to the individual conscience of the believer.) is true we are still bound by the Laws of the Orthodox Church we are attending and even though StuartK is right in his comments about intercommunion, I believe that this intercommunion happens in the Middle East and other areas of the "Old Country". I do not believe that intercommunion is wide spread in North America.
If you wish to try and recieve communion in an Orthodox Church, I would suggest, that after speaking with your spiritual father, that you speak with the priest at the Orthodox Church and see if he will allow this.
David
|
|
|
|
|
