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Please allow me to qoute the OCA's "bishop" Tikhon from another board regarding this statement:

"I don't see any spiritual benefit in that silly ("We are therefore moved to declare..." like a roomful of Queen Victorias!) statement of academics and professional ecumenists...Some of my friends claim that no one reads those statements. Well, some, a few, really do.... Well, they have to make some kind of statement to justify their travel and other expenses and their credentials...." 2-16-02

He seems to think heresy is justifiable when one needs to "produce"...something.

What edifying remarks.

This document is a heresy of relativism and indifference. Any "traction" is among those quasi-orthodox who really don't believe in Orthodoxy as it comes from a group of quasi-orthodox to begin with.

There is only baptism in the TRUE faith founded by Christ.

[ 08-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OrthodoxyOrDeath:
[QB]>>>Please allow me to qoute the OCA's "bishop" Tikhon from another board regarding this statement<<<

We all know that Metropolitan Tikhon is pretty much a chorus of one within the OCA, so his opinion should be given all the weight that it deserves.

spdundas:

I might be able to see more of your point if you could explain to me how and why you have gratuitously judged some Catholic Churches (including Romans) STUPID!?

AmdG

[ 08-05-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

He seems to think heresy is justifiable when one needs to "produce"...something.

What edifying remarks.

This document is a heresy of relativism and indifference. Any "traction" is among those quasi-orthodox who really don't believe in Orthodoxy as it comes from a group of quasi-orthodox to begin with.

There is only baptism in the TRUE faith founded by Christ.

Do you happen to belong to Rocor or maybe HOCNA? I am disgusted by your remarks about HIs Grace, Bishop +Tikhon. He is NOT a relativist and is a good bishop in the OCA.

Brian,

He may be good for the OCA, to what end I can only imagine, but he is an affront to Orthodoxy - symbolically and theologically.

He claims he was baptised in the Lutheran church, and that may not be a shock to a Latin who recognize such things, but the Orthodox believe there is only baptism in the Church, the Orthodox Church.

This "Agreed Statement on Baptism" has the same weight and significance to the Orthodox as Florence, Lyons, Balamand, and countless other anti-orthodox "bishops" and councils - and that is, "Dead on Arrival".

Legalists have a hard time understanding that if an "Orthodox" bishop or synod, such as the Iconoclasts, ran out today and signed a union with the Salvation Army it would only mean one thing, that the world is a few heretics richer. Unlike the Latin system, Orthodoxy is immovable, non-negotiable, and forever; It cannot be redefined or reinterpreted, as much as people would like to think.

George with folks like you they can just lock up the churches and hang out the "FOR SALE" signs.

I will speak from my personal experience. I was welcomed on various visits to Orthodox parishes. Had I not been I cannot say whether I would or would not be Orthodox today, however hospitality seems to me a hallmark of Christianity. (Christianity = Orthodoxy for me, BTW).

I mean if we Orthodox do not welcome inquirers into our midst the other churches surely will. Further, what about the great missionary past of the church, did St. Herman and St. Innocent (among others) come to America to serve the Russians and other already-Orthodox, I don't think anyone would say that. Nor did St. Nicholas go to Japan on that exclusive mission. I. as a fellow Orthodox Christian, am saddened by your comments.

That is just one more way in which we are failing to preach the gospel = by living in the ghetto. "If you are not Orthodox (or Russian or Lebanese or Greek) you don't belong here." That is what you have said.

Bob

StuartK and co.,

I have never met an Orthodox or Armenian Apostolic priest who would give communion to a Catholic. Maybe its a Michigan thing.

"Actually, they are allowed to receive the sacraments from any Apostolic Church--Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Church of the East. The Eastern Code, for one, leaves the matter entirely up to the individual conscience of the believer."

Stuart, could you point me to the Canon which states this?

As far as intercommunion goes, I'm all for it. Unfortunately I have no power to implement it, save asking an Orthodox priest to give me holy Communion. As I said, I've had little success with this. Infact an OCA priest told me there's no such thing as "inter-communion." You are either in communion or you are not. So, it sounds like a lot of work has to be done before this can ever become a reality. My Armenian Catholic pastor will communicate Orthodox who visit, but our local Armenian Apostolic parish does not reciprocate.

"As to whether a Catholic can attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy for purposes of familiarization and fostering of better relations, the Catholic Church not only permits it but encourages it."

StuartK, are you saying the Church formally endorses the idea that a Catholic is free to miss attending service at a Catholic parish in order to attend an Orthodox one? Could you point me to this. This is what I'm looking for. Remember, I'm not talking about emergency or exceptional situations, which I know allow for attending elsewhere than the Catholic communion.

spdundas,
I'm sorry if I dissapoint you but I think the Church's laws are important and have a valid purpose and meaning. I'm not comfortable with just blowing them off. If this makes me "legalistic," then I guess I am. But, I have always understood legalism differently than someone who respects laws and tries to obey them. There are many man-made laws I think are important. In fact, I believe God wants me to obey all laws that do not contradict His Divine Law (not just those which are identical to or repeat God's law).

Thanks again to everyone for your interesting insights into this subject.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Der-Ghazarian ]

Hi:


Exactly what is preventing you from doing both? I mean even if it's time, you can go to the Catholic Saturday Vigil Mass and then go to the Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

As you whether you can receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church, well, yes, you can, as long as the Orthodox priest is OK with it, which would be rather unusual, but nobody will blame you for asking.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo.

Shalom and Khaghagootyan amenetsoon (peace be with you).

Nothing has prevented me from doing both, so far. But I am asking to simply find out if anyone knows what is the Church's official position on this. Perhaps some Saturday I might need or want to do something an then attend an Orthodox Church on a Sunday. All I'm asking is to find out if anyone knows if this is permitted.

So far, I'm getting the impression that as long as I'm willing to blow-off the Church's law, I can do whatever I want. But if I want to be obedient to this law, I can not. Is this pretty much the jist of the current situation?

Dear Der-Ghazarian,

Well, if you want to be so formal about following the Church's law to the letter

And I'm one of those too, so you can't expect anything too radically exciting from me on this topic.

I may be misguided (someone once said I was playing "Pope" for wanting to uphold the Church's rules on intercommunion and the like), but even without knowing the canon law on this subject, it would seem to me that Catholics in communion with Rome should try and stick to their own Churches as far as possible.

I cannot imagine attending Sunday Liturgy without approaching Holy Communion and I know that my Orthodox friends would be offended if I didn't obey their Churches' rules with respect to Communion.

There are exceptions to the rule, and there are regions where intercommunion isn't a big deal.

It is a big deal here though.

Visiting churches to learn about each other's traditions etc. is great and I do it all the time.

I would be lying to myself, let alone my Church, if I pretended that I can attend another Church's liturgy and approach the sacred Mysteries that celebrate UNITY in faith.

I would suggest to those who think there is sufficient unity to warrant such intercommunion that their perspective is "modern Latinist" at best.

For Orthodoxy, it is always "all or none" by way of general rule.

If the remaining differences in our faith were not important, we'd have one Church already.

Sorry for being such a stick in the mud.

Alex

> posted by Bob King
>>posted by George Blaisdell:


>>>>The standard Eastern Orthodox answer would be "No." Or possibly, "Ask your priest." For us, worshipping only with those with whom we are in communion is very important.<<<

>>>However do you get any converts with that attitude?

>>Blind luck, brute force and ignorance!
<https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/smile.gif>

>>...we do not worship in churches with whom we are not in communion.

>>Whether one is in communion or not in communion is a really important matter for us. We simply do not worship outside the Church [as defined by communion] - It is forbidden by canon, I should think...

>George with folks like you they can just lock up the churches and hang out the "FOR SALE" signs.

I agree with your prognosis about my future...

>I will speak from my personal experience. I was welcomed on various visits to Orthodox parishes.

Me too...

>Had I not been I cannot say whether I would or would not be Orthodox today, however hospitality seems to me a hallmark of Christianity. (Christianity = Orthodoxy for me, BTW).

Me too...

>I mean if we Orthodox do not welcome inquirers into our midst the other churches surely will.

We had BETTER welcome enquirers!

>Further, what about the great missionary past of the church, did St. Herman and St. Innocent (among others) come to America to serve the Russians and other already-Orthodox, I don't think anyone would say that.

Me neither...

>Nor did St. Nicholas go to Japan on that exclusive mission.

I should hope not!

>I, as a fellow Orthodox Christian, am saddened by your comments.

I didn't say them all that good - sorry...

>That is just one more way in which we are failing to preach the gospel = by living in the ghetto. "If you are not Orthodox (or Russian or Lebanese or Greek) you don't belong here." That is what you have said.

And what I was trying to say was "If you are not a church in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy, then we EO's do not belong in your Church worshipping. Somehow, I seem to have managed to say the reverse... Sorry! Stu got the same thing from me... I used to think I could write kinda clearly... The smiley does indicate a joke, yes? [I'm new here...]

geo

>Bob

Canonically there are differences between the CIC and the Eastern Code. The Eastern Code is more liberal, as Stuart points out. The CIC contains a canon relating to the "Mass obligation" that refers to participation in a "Catholic rite" -- which is typically interpreted *not* to include those churches that are not in communion with Rome at the present time. Therefore RCs have somewhat less flexibility in this regard than ECs do.

When I was there, I attended Orthodox liturgies when I wanted to, regardless of what the canons said, but as a practical matter I also always attended a Catholic liturgy because I wanted to receive communion (which I couldn't do in an Orthodox Church). I didn't stop attending the Catholic liturgy until I had basically become a catechumen and had contact with an Orthodox priest ... and from that point on I did not attend the Catholic liturgy.

An interesting middle ground for you would be to attend the Armenian Apostolic DL -- they will often give communion to Catholics, and if you are Armenian there is no issue at all receiving communion there (my wife is a diaspora Armenian ... but grew up RC and is now EO like me).

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Either the Eastern Catholic code is liberal or, as some might comment, less is said there since Eastern Catholics should have already read and taken into consideration what the Latin Code says!

(I'm trying to work you into a lather so you'll hang around here longer, Big Guy!)

Alex

Dear:
Der-Ghazarian and all,

It is my understanding that the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the Eastern Orthodox Divine Sacrifice. However for Roman Catholics who follow our set Code of Canon Law, we see that our Sunday obligation must be fulfilled within a Roman/Eastern Catholic Church. The exception to this rule, is that, be it impossible for one to attend a Catholic service one may attend a Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox church, but may NOT receive communion; 1) because many of the very own Orthodox churches prohibit Catholics from their communion 2) Orthodoxy is not in full communion with Roman Catholicism. For Eastern Catholics, laws may well be different. As for me I would NEVER attend an Orthodox liturgy without attending a Catholic mass on that Sunday. Again for Eastern Catholics it is different feeling all together.
If you are Catholic and able to attend a Mass/Liturgy in one of your own churches, by all means GO! And if you want to go to an EO church, for whatever reason, go, but you should attend your own church too. Because we cannot forget full communion between us does not exist and I expect we Roman Catholics may first achieve full communion with a Protestant church than with Eastern Orthodoxy. It is indeed sad, but lets hope that the future relations of our churches are brighter.

God Bless,

ProCatholico

Friends,
Intercommunion is an interesting topic. I cannot understand why we cannot recieve communion be it one church or another. Our priests and bishops celebrate certain services together, like: Molebens, Akathists, funeral services etc., pray together, and it's not only once that I've seen priests and or bishops slap each other on the back and say "Hey, let's have a drink together".
Isn't this intercommunion already? Isn't loving and respecting one another intercommunion? We all have differences, and these differences exist even amongst ourselves (Catholics with Catholics, Orthodox with Orthodox). It seems to me that we are still blind and very cold hearted, we have a very long way to go. We pretend to follow rules that really are not of our being and we don't really accept them either, we pretend to, but hoestly we don't. I'm sory if I'm using the words we, maybe it's not we but just simply me. I really love both churches and I pray that one day true intercommunion will "officially" be accepted.
My prayers go onto all of you,
Lauro