www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy

CT, our church law allows us to attend the Orthodox churches when we cannot attend our own. This is a manifestation of the love and concern for the Church for her Eastern children in preserving their heritage. Of course, attending a Latin church would be optional for any Eastern Catholic.

But it is strictly speaking not correct to coerce any Eastern Catholic to attend the Latin Church with some fear of "schism" if they want to attend an Orthodox service if they do not have access to their own church sui iuris.

Many of our churches still do not have Vespers and even fewer Matins except Holy Week. I learned the Vespers and Matins services outside of Holy Week through attendance at Orthodox parishes.

To regain aspects of our worship that we have lost and which the Holy Father is exhorting us to recapture, attendence at Orthodox churches can be of great educational value to us in this endeavor.

Diak,

From that viewpoint, then, I can see good reason to attend Orthodox liturgies.

Soli Deo Gratia,
ChristTeen287

Actually, it was done in both the Melkite and Maronite Churches here. (Maronite more often)-- but this happened in the Melkite Church. I guess I don't feel "completed" unless I attend the Eastern Liturgy.
Dan

Sorry, I forgot about St. Joseph's Melkite parish in Scranton. Surprising!

"To regain aspects of our worship that we have lost and which the Holy Father is exhorting us to recapture, attendence at Orthodox churches can be of great educational value to us in this endeavor."

Diak,

You hit the nail right on the head. This is precisely my reason for wanting to occasionally attend an Armenian Apostolic Divine Liturgy. Only, I wanted to be able to do this without the fear of breaking my own Church laws by so doing.

Thanks

From Der-Ghazarian

>>>Diak wrote - "To regain aspects of our worship that we have lost and which the Holy Father is exhorting us to recapture, attendence at Orthodox churches can be of great educational value to us in this endeavor."<<<

>>You hit the nail right on the head. This is precisely my reason for wanting to occasionally attend an Armenian Apostolic Divine Liturgy. Only, I wanted to be able to do this without the fear of breaking my own Church laws by so doing.<<

The recapture of Orthodoxy [eg the lost aspects of RC worship] through education of RCC parishoners by attendance at Orthodox services at the direction of the Holy Father seems kinda double-edged. Reminds me of a story in Orthodoxy of a great Robber Chief fleeing from harm's way to a Christian women's monastery...

The holy women there welcomed him as the gift of God Himself, the Holy One for Whom they had been praying to be a blessing to them. So they treated him like a holy man and, cutting through the whole story to the end, he ended up becoming one!

I do not have the faith of these women, and have a hard time seeing past the theft issues implicit in the idea of the 'recapture' of 'lost aspects of our worship' under the guise of an 'educational' attendence at the holy services of an Orthodox Church.

I would encourage anyone who comes to an Orthodox Church service to do so simply to "come and see", and to avoid the "great educational value" for the 'recapturing of our lost aspects of worship' that is suggested...

The recognition of the validity of sacraments between the two Churches is only one way - The RCC recognizes the valitidy of the EO Mysteries, but not vice versa. EO's do not see themselves as one lung short, nor do they see themselves as needing to recapture aspects of their faith which have been lost. They see themselves as the lost, and not their Church, in Which they seek to find and work out their salvation in fear and trembling.

I am humbled at every service... And I apologize for any offence these words may have engendered...

geo

Catholics cannot fulfill their Sunday or holyday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. The Directory Concerning Ecumenical Matters (1967), cited by DT Brown, states that under some circumstances, Catholics may fulfill their obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. This was true until the promulgation of the Latin Code of Canon Law issued in 1983. Pope John Paul II's Apostolic Constitution of 1983 officially promulgated the Latin Code. It says:
In order, however, that all my properly investigate these prescriptions and intelligently come to know them before they take effect, we decree and command that they shall come into force from the first day of Advent of the year 1983, ALL ORDINANCES, CONSTITUTIONS AND PRIVIGES, EVEN THOSE MERITING SPECIAL AND INDIVIDUAL MENTION, AS WELL AS CONTRARY CUSTOMS, NOTWITHSTANDING.
Therefore, the Latin Code (CIC) promulgated in 1983 annuls and abrogates any contrary disciplinary decisions issued before Advent of 1983, including those cited from the Directory Concerning Ecumenical Matters (1967). The new Latin Code abrogates the discipline of the 1967 Directory with the following Canon:
Can. 1248 - paragraph 1. "The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied WHEREVER MASS IS CELEBRATED IN A CATHOLIC RITE either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day."
In addition, the 1993 Directory for the Application of the Principles and Norms of Ecumenism replaces the 1967 Directory (the document cited by DT Brown)and does not issue the same privileges.
Therefore, Catholics do not fulfill their Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Any such "privilege" was abrogated by the promulgation of the Latin Code in 1983, as well as the 1993 Directory. A privilege if abrogated by law would have to be re-instituted by law. The Eastern Code does not re-institute the privilege. Therefore Eastern Catholics do not fulfill their obligation by attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. (Eastern Catholics do in fact have Sunday and holyday obligations, according to the Eastern Code, Canon 881 paragraph 1.)
Furthermore, the Eastern Code as well as the Directory for the Application of Prinicples and Norms of Ecumenism clearly teach that a Catholic may not approach a non-Catholic minister for the Eucharist unless ALL of the following conditions are met:
1. Necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggest such Eucharistic sharing.
2. The error of indifferentism is avoided.
3. It is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister for the Sacrament.
4. The non-Catholic church must have valid sacraments.
(CCEO Can. 671, paragraph 2.)

Again, ALL of the above conditions must be met.
Sheldon Furryback

While I would agree that the Eastern Code does require certain conditions before Catholics can receive sacraments from Orthodox, I disagree with the rest of the interpretation offered by Sheldon.

To begin with, the Latin Code has absolutely no authority over Eastern Catholics.

CIC Can. 1: "The canons of this Code concerns only the latin Church."

Can. 1248 in the Latin Code ("wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite") has its parallel in Can. 881 in the Eastern Code:

"The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui juris, in the celebration of the divine praises."

The Eastern Code does not contain the phrase "in a catholic rite") and its omission is, I believe, significant. The Church does not recognize the validity of other Western eucharistic services even if these are called a Mass and the phrase "in a catholic rite" clarifies what is meant. There are no Eastern eucharistic services which are not recognized by the Church as true and valid. Therefore there is no need to put in the clarifying phrase "in a catholic rite" in the Eastern Code.

Any valid eucharistic celebration is "catholic." The eucharist of the Chalcedonian Orthodox, the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, the Assyrian, etc., is no less catholic than the eucharist celebrated in the Latin or Eastern Catholic Churches. The _Decree on Ecumenism_ from Vatican II speaks of the Eastern Churches which are "separated from us":


The celebration of the Eucharist in these Eastern Churches separated from us is still "the source of the Church's life" and by this the Church is "built up and grows in stature."

This understanding of the Eucharist in the Eastern Churches explains, IMO, the reason why the corresponding canon in the Eastern Code makes no mention of the phrase "in a catholic rite" as does the Latin Code since the situation is much different in an Eastern context.

If the phrase used in the Latin Code meant that only eucharistic celebrations in Churches in union with Rome were acceptable then there would have been greater need to state such in the Eastern Code. Further, if the phrase used in the Latin Code restricts Latin Catholics to attending Masses in Churches in union with Rome then the absence of that phrase in the Eastern Code would mean Eastern Catholics are not similarly restricted. That would not be reasonable and I think the Latin Code's phrasing must be understood as referring to the peculiar Western situation.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

Dear Friends,

I agree with Dave's reply to Sheldon. I think Sheldon is mixing up our Eastern Churches with the laws of the Latin Church. In fact, if you look at the corresponding Canon in the Eastern Code, it leaves out the phrase "in a Catholic rite," I believe for obvious reasons. It is easy for Roman Catholics to conceive of a very monolithic Church where we only worship with our own. But in the East we are so inter-twined with our Eastern Orthodox brethren, it is hard for us to entertain such ideas of exclusiveness.

Finally, as for GEO's post. I can only say that I am thankful to God that not all Eastern Orthodox share his views about the validity of Sacraments outside of the Eastern Orthodox communion. Just to remind you, I am not a RCC but rather I am an Armenian Catholic Christian. Thanks for taking note of this.

BTW, we are not trying to steal ideas from our Orthodox brethren as you have interpreted it. Rather, we are trying to move closer to them in brotherhood and to learn from them with humility, in hopes of one day reuniting. Some Orthodox are even so humble to suggest that they could also learn some things from Eastern Catholics. From your reply, I don't get the impression you are one of them. But thanks, anyways, for your thoughts on this matter.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Der-Ghazarian ]