www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Devotion to the Holy Theotokos

I hope you aren't implying that we can ignore God, praise Mary, and hope to be saved?

I apologize, but your analogy is a bit lost on me.

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

How is it possible to be devoted to Mary - and not to be on the sure path toward total consecration and devotion to Her Son?

Even Protestants like Oecolampadius believed that it was a proximate sign of damnation not to have any feelings of devotion for the Mother of the Word Incarnate.

Where in either of our two respective traditions, Tridentine and Byzantine, is Mary NOT highly revered as our sure way to God?

Alex

Sorry if the analogy is lost by my father's irst satatement. He was trying to underscore a point: that I really have no right to ignore my mother. To ignore her would be worse than ignoring him. I am of his seed, but she bore me (literally to the point of death). She bore me, knowing full well what her risk would be. The analogy holds with the Mother of God. Without her, Christ would not have come into the would. Her yes, her desire did not just bring a life into the world, but Life in to the world. Without her, we would not be able to be brothers of God, and thus approach the Father in a direct, familial way. Do we not owe her at least the same love and devotion we owe our natural mothers? Perhaps we owe her more.

Forgive me for my all too clumsy words.

Dear Akemner,

I don't think anyone here could have put it better! You are so right, without Mary's "yes" where would we be? She is the first witness and disciple of our Lord, the one from whom He took His very flesh. What an awesome reality.

When Christians pray, East and West, in union with the Holy Mother of God, the angels and saints, we are praying as pilgrims journeying toward the fullness of that glorious Kingdom where they eagerly await us.

Your analogy is beautiful!

Khrystyna

Dear Alex
I agree!

Dear Alex,
I disagree. But you realize that everyone who attends liturgy is venerating the saints, it's part of our traditional community prayer, no one is arguing to change that. I love it and I join my community in prayer! I pray the hours, Mary is commemorated throughout the year.

I do not disagree with you in principal, I understand the position of the church in encouraging the veneration of the saints!

I think that we disagree in interpretation.

We commemorate different saints and holy events throughout the calendar year, and we pray for each other daily. But every time you pray to one saint, you do not pray to the rest. When I pray to Mary, I am not praying to Saint Anthony, or Francis my favorite. By not cultivating a deep devotion to any one saint I do not deny them their role in my salvation, or anyones. Mary serves that role for me best as a model of sanctity, someone to emulate.

One cannot force these things, and someone growing in faith does not need a sense of guilt because they don't feel that kind of devotion for a creature of God, no matter how sanctified that person is.

But my extra devotions are mine alone. Rather than pray 150 Hail Mary's I may wish to pray 150 Psalms or 150 Our Fathers or 150 Jesus Prayers. The choice is mine alone and for my reasons alone.

What is the best form of prayer? The one you'll do!

Begging your forgiveness and prayers
Michael, sinner

Dear Michael,

Of course, in private devotion, we may pray however we wish.

But why not do all three Psalters? The Psalms, the 150 Our Fathers and the 150 Hail Marys'?

In praying to one saint, we are INDEED praying to all the others.

To bow to one is NOT to fail to bow to the entire Heavenly choir!

The Theotokos is greater than ALL the Saints and Angels together as the Mother of the Word Incarnate.

Devotion to her is NOT like devotion to a saint. It is part of our adoration for the Incarnate Word of God.

For me, greater devotion to the Theotokos brings one into much, much closer union with the Lord Jesus.

It brings me to a deeper understanding and inner connectedness with the fact that God has become truly Flesh for my salvation and deification.

But if you prefer St Anthony . . .

What am I going to do with you, Big Guy?

Alex

Gideon, I think you have to focus on WHY we honor the most holy Mother of God. Rather than think about her as an artistic rendering on the one hand or as a purely spiritual being on the other, think about what we know of her in her life on earth as one of us.

Specifically, think about how she trusted in God and gave birth to God the Word. Think about how she knew and cared for Jesus as a child and as He embarked on His Father's work. Think about how, when she pointed out at the wedding feast that "They have no wine," and Jesus at first protested that His ministry hadn't yet begun, that He listened to her request on behalf of the couple and granted the miracle. (She interceded.) Think about how she had to watch her Son be crucified on Good Friday and how it must have pained her and how she must have felt when the Tomb was empty and news of the Resurrection reached her.

We pray to God. But - acknowledging the special role of the Theotokos as an intercessor - even as she was at the wedding feast - we may ask her to help us in our prayers. Acknowledging and honoring the saints - and learning from their examples - is appropriate.

Thank you...I do know why's and how's I just can't put my heart into it. Pray for me as I continue to try.
Gideon

I more than appreciate Brother Gideon's conundrum. It is an reality that can cause great distress, especially to those who come to Orthodoxy from Western, non-Catholic communities.

In accepting Catholicism or Orthodoxy, the new person is expected to accept a lot of theological and ethno-cultural things that are mere handmaidens to salvation. While these 'handmaidens' are truly routes to the Father, I understand that for them (and for many others) that they prefer the HOV or 'express' lanes that go directly to God.

I wish I had that blessing.

For human beings, Salvation is of Christ. And Christ, as Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is God and the instrument of our salvation.

For those whose grace is to stand or kneel before Our Risen Savior, they are possessed of a wonderful grace that short-circuits anything else. For the rest of us, we can use mediation through Our Holy Mother or the other saints, but that mediation is, as the term implies, a 'connection' to God. For those whose grace is to go directly before Our Lord, or -- mirabile dictu - directly to the Father, then we should stand in awe of the graces given to them to go directly to God without mediation.

In my deepest Lenten prayer, and especially when I am most in distress because of personal trauma or my mother's illnesses, I cry out to God Himself: Oh God! YOU are the only One who can redeem me from this distress. Please, I beg You, come to my aid. For You alone are the Blessed One and the Lover of Mankind.

I will oftentimes call upon our Most Holy Mother, and the Saints who are well-disposed to the sick, the suffering or the Greeks, and beg their intercession as well. But I know, it is God alone who saves, and who can come to my aid. And I have no compunction whatsoever in directing my prayers to the God Who loves all of His creation. Like the woman who asked Our Lord for a favor, and who later said: even the dogs get the crumbs from the table, I too approach God directly for urgent needs for my stroke-paralyzed Mom, my sick friends, for the sick and for everyone in need who doesn't know how to pray.

And I know that He who watches over even the tiny sparrows, will hear my prayer and come to my aid.

Our God is a Great God. He LOVES His creation and will be attentive to anyone who calls upon His name. I believe this with all my heart, and I do everything in my life with the firm assurance that the Lord is God, and His Will WILL be done. I need only ask Him.

I beg your assistance in asking the Lord God to have mercy upon me; and to help those for whom I pray and work.

Blessings to ALL!

<<For those whose grace is to stand or kneel before Our Risen Savior, they are possessed of a wonderful grace that short-circuits anything else. For the rest of us, we can use mediation through Our Holy Mother or the other saints, but that mediation is, as the term implies, a 'connection' to God. For those whose grace is to go directly before Our Lord, or -- mirabile dictu - directly to the Father, then we should stand in awe of the graces given to them to go directly to God without mediation.>>

I find it difficult to accept direct access to God as a grace given to some but not to others. Any Christian always has direct access to the Triune Godhead at any time. I will admit there is much truth to Dr. John's statement about non-Catholic or Orthodox Western Christians having initial difficulties accepting the theology behind the Communion of Saints. If one is raised a Southern Baptist there will be far more question marks in one's mind than if one is raised a high church Anglican or Lutheran.

Khrystyna

Dear Dr. John,

Your subtle retraction is accepted!

Most Holy MOther of God, save us!!

Alex

Dear Friends,

My Lenten reading is focused on the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

The 7th council was very explicit that we have a religious duty to venerate the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God, who is above every created thing, and who is to be invoked, along with the Saints - anathema to those who say otherwise etc.

That sounds pretty definite to me, at least . . .

And reading the lives of St Anthony and St Francis, one does sort of get a sense that they had a TREMENDOUS DEVOTION to the Mother of God.

At least, that is something that kind of strikes me.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into their lives . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,
My greatly devout friend enthused for the Lord Our God and Our Lady.

I hope that you do not imply that in my private, extemporaneous prayers to God I am a heretic.

Must I refer to the Holy Theotokos in every prayer I make?

What exactly do you mean?

I believe that my prayers to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Our Father or the holy Triune God are sufficient in themselves. Do you disagree?

Michael, sinner

Dear Michael,

I do not impute heresy to anyone, as I fear I could fall into heresy myself at any time . . .

But the pattern of liturgical prayer as practiced by the Church has, woven into them, invocations addressed to the Mother of God, the Holy Angels and the Saints, as part of a balanced life of prayer.

The Seventh Ecumenical Council also, I believe it can be said, "mandated" that Christians are to venerate as first of all the Saints, the Virgin Mary, as Mother of God and the saints who can make intercession for us before the Throne of Almighty God.

We are to, moreover, venerate their images and relics too as an integral part of a well-balanced devotional and Orthodox-Catholic life of prayer.

My own reading of this Council is that, yes, it isn't a matter of supererogation.

Private prayers notwithstanding, the Church also teaches us to grow into a life of prayer according to its own mind, and that means the liturgical prayer of the Church which is replete with all manner of invocation to the Mother of God and the Saints, including the Canons and Akathists said devotionally.

That is how I know our Faith and what it teaches with respect to the honour paid to the Virgin Mother of God and the Saints.

I do not presume to pronounce censure on anyone, even Donnchadh!

Alex

Dear Alex
I have the utmost respect for you as a person, and that is not likely to change at any time. However I could not help but notice your jestful dig at me over the saints Anthony and Francis.

Therefore I took the posting as a direct reference to me, although I had by then presumed the conversation was at an end. If so, you must have noticed that I had already told you that I venerate Saint Mary during the liturgy and during my practice of the hours.

Veneration does not equal devotion. You seem to be equating my lack of personal devotion to Mary as a refusal to venerate her as the mother of God. A deep personal devotion such as you seem to be encouraging could be approved by every hierarch of the church but cannot be mandated and is not required for my salvation.

I recognize Jesus Christ as God incarnate, Mary is His loving earthly mother, the Ark of the Covenant. I'm also sure she was a fine cook and she raised a good boy. I'll bet her prosphora was the best! Her intercession is useful and valuable, and I am sure that her prayers were invoked even before the dormition.

At any time I pray to Mary it is in an informal way, as I say extemporaneous, much as I speak to my dearly departed father or other relatives at the cemetery and sometimes to other saints for special, particular reasons.

Sometimes my prayers have no words, just feelings. Sometimes when I pray I may be looking in the direction of a crucifix or icon and I cease to see it. I don't know why but I just feel my love for God, my sorrow, my shame and no words suffice.

I don't do litanies, akathists and rosaries outside of communal worship. I do not need to and I do not usually want to. When I visit France I probably will not visit Lourdes. When I have the time to pray I pray to God, I always have and I always will.

I think you are building a straw man out of this whole thing.

Michael, sinner