www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Stand or Kneel?

From what I have read, the Eparchy of Van Nuys has been the Ruthenian eparchy that has been most open to being more of an inclusive Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. The Van Nuys eparchy has ordained a Hispanic as a priest and, from what I have been told, also celebrates the Divine Liturgy in Spanish and some of the Asian languages as well.

Dear Michael,

I agree with what you say.

However, we have in our parish of St Nicholas in Toronto the tradition of "First Confession" in imitation of the Latin "First Holy Communion."

It is a tremendous event in the life of our entire community, focused on the young people when the parishes are filled to overflowing for the day, with family picnics and parties following.

The problem is, if someone could come up with a practice to replace this with, fine. Otherwise, it is something that is here with us to stay, Latinist or not!

Alex

Alex,

I do have something to replace "first confession". Actually, Father Loya does. It's called first public profession of faith. He suggests, "when we celebrate first confession we are celebrating the fall of humankind in which sin entered the world. Why celebrate that?" He has asked me to look into working out something that might be used to celebrate "First public Profession."

Any ideas would be most welcome.

Dan Lauffer

Reply to Anastasios:

Ok Mr Obi Wan of the Byzantines Let's say that you are the newly elected Metropolitan. What would you do to "Reform"
our churches from the evils of "Latinisation" since you are so properly educated down in Raleigh. I think you dislike the Roman church and vent it thru the Byzantine rite. Go ahead tell me what you would do and also tell me how you would make all of us go along with it. Tell it to a Ukrainian Baba that she needs to throw away her rosary beads because she has been "Latinised". Tell that to my Grandparents as well when you are removing the pews because the Greeks didn't have them 1000 years ago . The point is we have them now and this is what the church has evolved into. This is how it fits in with the melting pot of American life. Ofcourse Latinisations crept in. Our church was in Hungary for 1000 years. If you do not like pews well good for you. Our church has them and Likes them. But do tell me what you would do if you were the head honcho. I wanna hear this. I also want you to tell me what the church in Ruthenia was like 1000 years ago and back it up with facts. The truth is it doesn't matter what it was like 1000 years ago. This is a different world.
What about the calendar ?? Julian or Gregorian ?? Should we have segregated churches again Women on Left and fully headcovered with men on right ??? What about Slavonic ?? Our people used to say that the only Language in church to be allowed was Slavonic. They used to say English was a heretic language. You gonna re-implement that too?? Why stop there let's really make our churches like the old timer Orthodox and go with the "Domostroi" rules. Now that would really rid us of the evils of "Latinisation".

Let's pray for each other. :}

Slava,

You seem awfully testy.

We are evolving to be sure. Right now we are evolving into something that looks more like what the Church was before 1054 and before its Americanization. America needs an alternative Spirituality. So God will raise us up in part to provide that alternative. If you are a part of that wonderful. If not well perhaps God has a different and positive plan for you.

But why be so testy?

Dan Lauffer

Ok, so do we Stand or Kneel?

Glory to our Lord Jesus Christ, who is risen from the dead.

Welcome, Ray!

In response to your question: In the Byzantine tradition, Catholic or Orthodox, the faithful stand throughout the Liturgy. A deep bow is made during the consecration. Of course, people often sit for the sermon, and often for the epistle reading as well. We do kneel sometimes, and we prostrate ourselves, but this is usually during times like Lent and is not what we do at every Sunday Liturgy.

Of course, if a person is elderly, infirm, or tired, or is on crutches, or is very pregnant :-) , or for some similar reason, they are welcome to sit down. The point of standing is not to stand until your feet really hurt; the point of standing is to show that we are joyful about our Lord's resurrection. :-)

In many Byzantine Catholic parishes, you will find people kneeling during the consecration or sitting for much of the Liturgy (like during the litanies). Though this is very common, it is unfortunately not really the traditional Byzantine manner of liturgical worship. Kneeling during the consecration, for example, was borrowed from the Roman or Latin manner of liturgical worship. So while kneeling during the consecration is a good thing, it is part of the Latin tradition, not the Byzantine. Latinizations like this are like having two full jigsaw puzzles with all the pieces of the first puzzle being perfect for the first puzzle, and all the pieces of the second puzzle being perfect for the second puzzle, and having someone take a perfectly good piece out of the first puzzle and trying to replace it with a differently-shaped piece from the second puzzle. We have a Roman jigsaw puzzle and a Byzantine jigsaw puzzle, and the piece of the Roman puzzle called "kneeling during the consecration" (among other pieces) was put into the Byzantine puzzle in place of the Byzantine puzzle piece called "standing and bowing", where it just doesn't quite fit. (Pews in our churches are an example of this...the Byzantine way of worship, with its bowing and prostrations, was not developed with pews in mind. They get in the way, and I myself have accidentally knocked into them while bowing. :-)) This switching of pieces was done a while back in a misguided attempt to make ourselves like other Catholics around us, most of whom were Roman, and it lingers to this day, though we are slowly but surely beginning to follow the exhortations of our fathers the bishops, the Pope of Rome with whom we are in union, and Bishop Tawil, who wrote the excellent letter "The Courage to be Ourselves", and are returning to the richness of our true liturgical and traditional heritage.

I hope this has been helpful! I apologize for the long, pedantic digression on Latinizations, but I thought some clarification was necessary given the turmoil in this thread over Latinization.

I'm so glad you came to a Byz. Divine Liturgy! Did you like it? Had you been before? Have you gone again? I'd love to hear about it! :-)

God bless you, and again, I hope this helps!

Liz the Russian Byzantine Catholic :-)

Dear Dan,

Now this is truly a wonderful idea! You are absolutely right, why celebrate the First Confession? Depressing at best . . .

How could something like this be worked into a liturgical service, or perhaps be a part of the Divine Liturgy?

Perhaps this could be LIKE a monastic profession, with the children wearing white baptismal-style robes with red crosses on the back, holding a candle with perhaps a prayer rope, a Gospel etc.?

I just LOOOVE this!

Does anyone have any further comments about Dan's brilliant idea?

Alex

Dear Slava,

If you are "testy," I think you have a right to be.

The adoption of spiritual practices from other sources has a long history in the Slavic Churches.

As Dr. John has said before, the national-cultural question of a people's survival plays an important part here.

In areas of Eastern Europe where Russification was a concern, Roman Catholic practices such as the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration and the like actually contributed to a kind of cultural resistance against it.

We had a gentleman who said he was from the ROCOR and, judging from his invective against Ukrainian identity,(which he called "Galician") he must have been .

Again, in the Carpathians where there was a tremendous pressure to become Roman Catholic, strong Orthodox practices were maintained to protect oneself against cultural absorption in that way. The Three Bar Cross is prominent there in a way it isn't in eastern Ukraine, for example.

The practice of the Rosary is something that was definitely brought into Orthodoxy through the Unia and the Uniates returning to Orthodoxy.

Yet, this practice was adopted privately by many Russian Orthodox monks and nuns, even the great St Seraphim of Sarov. A legend grew up that the practice came to the East in the eighth century, before it came into the West!

I don't think we ever need to try and change people's devotion to the Rosary. Fr. Serge Keleher himself told me he practiced it and would never get people to stop saying it.

The East-West "hybrid" doesn't bother me. It exists in varying degrees throughout the Ukrainian Catholic parishes in Canada (except at St Elias' in Brampton which sets a Byzantine example unequalled anywhere).

The Ukrainian Church defended its people and preserved their very existence.

Ultimately, the purity of Byzantine tradition is not the main concern of this Church (Vatican imperatives notwithstanding).

It is what best expresses, protects and promotes Ukrainian Christian heritage, Rosary, Molebens et al.

You don't have to be Ukrainian to appreciate this, but it helps .

Slava, God bless you!

Alex

Great post, Liz. Reminded me of a couple of my little son's puzzles - different pictures, cut with the same dies. Amazing pictures you can assemble!


To the matter of celebrating "first confession" I think it isn't a Good Thing, but not for the reasons given. Personally, I think that assuming that All Children are ready for this mystery on a given convenient-to-the-parish date (and none are ready until that date) is a rather stupid one-size-fits-all herd mentality, rather at odds with reality and tradition. In most places it really IS a last-gasp attempt to have some date the parents & grandparents can dress the kid up, take lots of pictures and throw a big party. No mistake, I have absolutely no problem with celebrating (in both senses)the Most Neglected Mystery - Sin is sad; repentance and forgiveness bring healing and joy - but this isn't the way to do it.

Never considered a "solemn profession of faith." Hmmmmmmm. Interesting idea - is there any foundation for it in tradition? I know we all would like some rite-of-passage-ish event to latch onto, but is it really compatible with the idea that our kids are fully initiated members of the Church once they are baptized, chrismated & communicated? Jus' wonderin'


Cheers on a sunny Wednesday, and until tomorrow...

CHRIST IS RISEN!!


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

Liz's post reminds me of Tsar Alexis IV, the father of Peter the Great.

He would make 1,000 prostrations daily during the services in Church and 1,500 during Lent.

Two Orthodox clerics from Antioch visited him and attended the Hours with him.

They found the length of the services, through which they stood, to be too much. They spent two days in bed and suffered from leg cramps for about a week afterwards.

They said that if anyone wanted to "shorten their days" they should go to Russia and "stand as a holy man."

Pews aren't the only things some people won't stand for

Alex

>>>What would you do to "Reform"
our churches from the evils of "Latinisation" since you are so properly educated down in Raleigh.<<<

Actually, there are many documents available that lay out precisely what is to be done. We can start with the Vatican II Decree on the Oriental Churches, which enjoins us to restore the fullness of our patrimony, not only in liturgy, but also in spirituality, doctrine, theology and discipline. Then you can look to 1990 Code of Canons for the Oriental Churches, which lays out the same thing in the form of liturgical prescriptions. If those aren't clear enough, there is the 1996 Instruction for Implementation of the Liturgical Provisions of the Code of Canons for the Oriental Churches, promulgated by the Congregation for the Oriental Churches. But perhaps the first step of all would be to require all eparchies and parishes to follow the provisions of the 1944 Ordo Celebrationis of the Ruthenian Recension for Orthros, Vespers, and the Divine Liturgy, and their associated liturgical texts.

This would be accompanied by an intensive course in liturgical theology for all priests, bishops, deacons and religious educators, which would then be transmitted through courses in liturgy and spirituality for adults and children.

Really rather simple, actually. The only thing we have lacked all along is the leadership to do it.

>>>Ok, so do we Stand or Kneel? <<<

On Sundays, you stand, except for the Epistle and the Homily; on other days of the week, do whatever the Spirit moves you to do. Just keep your clothes on, OK?

>>>Now this is truly a wonderful idea! You are absolutely right, why celebrate the First Confession? Depressing at best . . .<<<

Well, when you think about it, we are really celebrating the day that our children OFFICIALLY become sinners. We parents, of course, know that they have been de facto sinners for a long time already.

What I find amusing is the fact that the entire "Age of Reason" argument is entirely spurious, a post hoc attempt by the Roman Church to rationalize their abandonment in the 13th century (entirely by accident, it would seem) of their age-old tradition of administering the Eucharist to infants, just as ever other Church did. When the Latins restore infant communion and the integrity of the three-fold sacraments of initiation, what then will latinized Byzantines do? Continue yearning for a medieval latinism that even the Latin Church admits was a mistake?

Dear Stuart,

Leadership, yes.

But I tried something in my parish when our liturgical services resembled a bad cake - too much shortening.

I started a petition among the people, but with some explanation as to why we should have the Second Antiphon back and related Ektenias.

The response was excellent and we now have a much restored Liturgy. Our priests still resist other restorations. In my former parish, our priest said he would never do the Holy Thursday Washing of the Feet ("not as long as I am still a priest").

The Vatican also has ways of dealing with an intransigent Ukrainian Catholic Church that refuses to open and close the iconostasis doors - it basically forbids this practice from going over to other Churches!

But a major change was made when we stopped having the recitation of the Rosary in public.

Now can you boast of something similar in your parish, Stuart?

Alex