www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "No such thing as Eastern Catholicism"?

Can all the Orthodox Churches say that? They don't have to. The Patriarch is not a Greek version of the pope.

Obtuse Vasili

Renegade Cradle Byzantine Catholic ( sick of our "helots of the Latins" ignoble history.) Viva Orthodoxy! A curse on Roman duplicity! Smoke that Dan-o!

...........and peace to all

http://arts.endow.gov/explore/Heritage/Chant1.ram

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 11-03-2000).]

>>>Renegade Cradle Byzantine Catholic ( sick of our "helots of the Latins"
ignoble history.) Viva Orthodoxy! A curse on Roman duplicity! Smoke
that Dan-o! <<<

How much of this is based on objective reflection, and how much on a need for self-justification? My own personal self, I see no need for anyone who decides that he can better follow his own path of salvation in the Orthodox communion rather than the Catholic communion to make excuses. Both communions together comprise the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; thus, one is within the Church, wherever one decides to go.

Joe, I was merely trying to point out, in a humorous tone, the increasingly ridiculous nature of trying to name the process of (re-)union. But, to answer the question relatively seriously, the phrase you suggest is redundant from an Orthodox perspective. No one is ASKING the various churches to proclaim to the world that they are in communion with a particular prelate (even if he IS the head of one of the ancient Sees). Today, there are more people in an average New York City Orthodox parish than there are in the whole of Istanbul. No one is asking the other millions of Orthodox to pay fealty to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Yes, during the Byzantine and Ottoman empires this WAS a requirement, it seems. But, today, I don't think so. Even bishops in Greece (never mind the rest of the Orthodox world) have been known to voice their oppostion to one of the Patriarch's given positions.
But, also in a semantic sense the phrase means little. The analogy would be to "Western Catholic churches of the Latin Rite in communion with Rome". Sounds weird. Yes, I know you're thinking Old Catholics, Anglicans, etc. Anyway, in the larger sense it's redundant because all who are in Christ, as the Body of Christ, are in Communion with each other anyway. That means you and me, buddy.

Dear capasnuffalufakas,

Actually my post was in response to Robert Sweiss posted right above my post. Sometimes I think he's been listening to his Sam the Sham and the Pharohes records again.

I do want to thank you for your kind words. That's the nicest thing anybody has said to me in this forum lately. As a Byzantine Catholic punching bag I usually get slapped from the West for not believeing things I don't understand and then decked broadsided from the East because of decisions my ancestors made over 350 years. Maybe Heaven holds a special place for us Byzantine Catholics.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Joe Prokopchak,
Who's Sam the Sham and the Pharohes records? Please enlighten me. Are you a golden glove boxer by any chance? You would not get "hit" so often if you only belonged to the right gym, the Orthodox gym. LOL

Robert,

Exactly my point. Because I don't belong to the right Orthodox gym, but instead belong to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh I get slapped around and take pot shots from the school yard bully.

As a side note, and I hope this doesn't upset your stomach, bit I thought you would like to know that all of our priests from the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh just attended their annual retreat this past week at Antiochian Village in Ligonier, PA. An Eastern Orthodox property.

Joe Prokopchak
"Save your people O' God, and bless your inheritance"

Joe,
May God bless your priests. You are more than welcomed to visit the Antiochian Village. I hope you don't have the impression that I am on an Spanish Inquistion or some sort of Crusader. I dare say that I seek to hear true theology & history spoken amongst the Byzantines. You probably know what I think and feel of papal theology. All this slapping around and taking pot shots is not healthy imagery. I apologize if I caused to think this way. However, I cannot apologize for spoken Orthodox truths.

"Again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord"

>>>I dare say that I seek
to hear true theology & history spoken amongst the Byzantines. You probably know what I think and feel of
papal theology.<<<

My dear Robert,

If you are truly sincere in this statement, then I beg you to read the various catechetical books and mongraphs published by God With Us. In particular, read the 2-volume Catechism, Light For Life I: The Mystery Believed; and Light For Life II: The Mystery Celebrated. Tell me if there is anything in either volume that is in any way not Orthodox. Then read "To the Ends of the Earth: Aspects of Eastern Catholic Church History", and tell me that is isn't an objective, "warts and all" account of the origins, development, and history of the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

In Christ,

Stuart

Vasili:

You write: Having just returned from the annual Melkite Clergy Conference I probably should inform you that about half the priests there are, um, American! All but one of the deacons was American.

There were at least five priests who had been Latin and changed to the Melkite Church and another two or three who were 2nd, 4rd or 4th generation American.

Not sure where you're going with this, but at least you should have the facts. BTW, Bishop Nicholas is an American as well...

Edward, deacon and sinner

Haste makes waste! What I meant to write, Father Deacon, was "married American men." Sorry for the confusion. ( And these married priests must be assigned as pastors, not college and hospital chaplains, etc.)

Peace to all.

Greek Catholic in Communion with Constantinople

StuartK,
I do not question the sincerity of the materials you stated. I have not read them and I will accept what you say at face value. However, what have the Byzantine Catholics and yourself done to correct the corrupt theology of the Roman Church? It maybe that it cannot be corrupt since you are in communion. But from an Orthodox perspective, it is corrupt. The word 'corrupt' is a harsh word and I do not believe in being politically correct. I do not know how you in good conscious accept and believe in Orthodoxy and at the same time Catholicism! This is a HUGE CONTRADICTION. You tend to display a strong grasp on the issues that deal with the East & West. Your intentions probably mean well but I cannot in good conscious accept Catholicism. It has become foreign to me, words of emptiness that pay lip service that lack Orthodoxy. There is no strong level of trust from the bottom to the top within Catholicism. Could you explain in good conscious how someone of your caliber can be faithful to Orthodoxy and believe in communion with Rome which is not Orthodox? I have admitted that I cannot see this as realistic but I would like to hear your opinion. Also, I would like to know from you how Byzantine Catholics are not under the sway of relativism in regards to communion with Rome.

Dear Vasili:

Okay, that clarifies things. There are married Melkite priests. At this time none are pastors (at least, I don't think there are any). This was, in fact, discussed in passing this past week at our clergy conference. It was left unresolved. However, there was the ordination of a married man to the presbyterate in the Melkite Church this year.

Edward, deacon and sinner.

>>> This was, in fact, discussed in passing this past week at our clergy conference. It was
left unresolved.<<<

It will probably stay that way until the retirement of Bishop John. But, since in point of fact, neither Ea Semper nor Cum Data Fuerit actually applied to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, and since the Code of Canons for the Oriental Churches overrides any "special norms" (a wonderfully Latin oxymoron--for it it is a norm, can it be special? and if it is special, can it be a norm?), the only things that prevent the Melkites from ordaining married men as a matter of course are: (a) lack of qualified candidates at this time; (b) resistance among the laity and some members of the clergy; and (c) the financial burden of providing a living wage to support priestly families in a system that assumes a priest can live on $14,000 a year.

[This message has been edited by StuartK (edited 11-05-2000).]

<b><font color=blue>Dear Brother Sweiss --

Being the catechumen of the lot and untrained and uneducated to the finer nuances of differences, I wish to tread softly here in response to your question.

In catechumen class I have heard a number of hints that there is indeed a difference between us and the Latins. It is intimated, and I expect to learn more as I get into the doctrinal and eclessiastical lessons of the class, that Byzantine Catholicism is true orthodox (please note small "O") catholicism and that the West has deviated. As I learn more, I will share with you the impressions and things I am learning.

Having said that, let me say that I am coming to appreciate the richness of the Eastern mindset and liturgy and the wonderful prayers I can use for my Matins, Vespers, and Complines. I have both an Orthodox prayer book and a prayer book from our Byzantine book store.

Funny, the prayers are identical!! Imagine that!!!

Our parish priests are determined to keep our rites from any semblence of a Western look or any intermingling of rites whatsoever. We are Eastern and determined (as I suspect many others on this board are) to keep ourselves so. It seems to me, and again I speak as a novitiate, that one would not be able to tell us from our Orthodox neighbors across the street until the prayers in which we pray for the Holy Father as the head of the Church. Everything else is profoundly Eastern in decor.

I do hope that the Western rite will be able to change in such a way as to bring about unity. I noted with some interest that Pope John Paul II in the recent Dominus Iesus paper printed out the Nicene Creed WITHOUT the insertion of the filioque.

Perhaps there is a small glimmer of hope yet.

Brother Catechumen Ed -- Learning to think Eastern and loving it!!

Brother Ed,

You are very optimistic and that is good. But, it is the unfortunate truth that the majority of Byzantine Catholics, over the generations, have lost touch with the Orthodox phronema (mindset). Even if one keeps all the liturgical traditions of the Byzantine Christian culture, if one is catechized as a Latin, the damage to the "orthodox mindset" is significant enough to be fatal. The Byzantine Catholic universe is full of eviscerated souls-"Greeks" more at home in a "Latin" world.

Maybe the following will help you avoid that pitfall to a full life in Christ.
www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/index.html [orthodoxinfo.com]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 11-05-2000).]