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Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Christ is Born! Let us glorify Him!

So you are saying Father Thomas is wrong!

It happens . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

Would it be true to say that Eastern Orthodoxy has a tendency today to see the Byzantine tradition as normative to a large extent?

I was sent some polemical Orthodox writings from Russia that compared Latin Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy.

It seemed to me that a lot of what was being criticized about the Latin West had to do with the fact that the Latins didn't share a number of ritual traditions with the Byzantine East.

Alex

My answer:

YES!

Dave

Dear Dave,

O.K.!

(Happy New Year!)

Alex

Happy New Year to you as well!

I'll elaborate on my response.

I have known many Orthodox to associate Orthodoxy with use of the Byzantine liturgical tradition. As you said in an above post, often the Roman Church or other churches are deemed unOrthodox because their practice is divergent from standard "Orthodox" (read "Byzantine") practice. For example, I happened upon a copy of the most recent "Again" magazine, and in it one priest says that leavened bread is the only bread used for the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church (the Armenians will be shocked... oh wait, I forgot they're "Monophysites" :rolleyes: ) and an invocation of the Holy Spirit must be present for the Consecration to occur. Those elements, of course, are standard in modern Byzantine practice but may not occur in other traditions for so long in communion with the Orthodox Churches.

Sometimes this "Byzantine only" argument goes a step further: one particular geographic recension (Russian, Greek, etc) is held as normative and "the most Orthodox" above the others. "Those Greeks just don't serve like correct Orthodox." "Those Russians don't sing proper Orthodox music." "Carpatho-Russian traditions aren't Orthodox." The list goes on.

Arguments against the Western Rite in Orthodoxy are usually that people shaped in a Western liturgical practice won't know how to serve or attend Liturgy in other Orthodox churches around the world. We all know, of course, that for the first one thousand years of Christianity all the churches in the world served an identical liturgy. :rolleyes:

Dave

Orthodox Catholic:

Do you know if these particular priests go as far as adopting Western theology? I am under the impression that they would not be permitted to do so.

Fr. Deacon Lance:

I would be most interested in reading such an article. If and when you do find a web link to it, please let us know. Thanks.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Dave,

When I was at the Antiochian Western Rite conference in Toronto the other year, the issues you talk about came up during the deliberations.

For example, it was noted that the prayer before Communion in the LIturgy of St John Chrysostom "I believe, O Lord, and confess . . ." was ordered put into the Western Rite liturgies of the Antiochian Church by the Patriarch himself.

Rather than criticize this as undue "Easternization," the Western Rite priests simply said that this shows the Patriarch is "concerned and thinks about" the Western Rite Orthodox ( ).

One Western Rite priest I know said that he continues to cross himself with the whole hand and move to the left - but he doesn't do that when his Eastern Antiochian Bishop is around.

He said the Bishop gives him "a nasty look" whenever he crossed himself to the left ).

He also has Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament - but again not while the Eastern bishop is around . . .

Just as we Eastern Catholics have historically complained about Latinizations and the feeling of being "second class" with the Latin Rite, so too do the Western Rite Orthodox experience something very similar in their relations with their Eastern Orthodox brothers.

(Another sticky issue was the poaching of Western Rite priests by Eastern Bishops who, as one person got up and explained, told his congregation the Western Rite was only a "temporary arrangement" before the "fullness of the Eastern Orthodox tradition" could take hold among the Western converts!)

It is clear that cultural/sociological issues play a greater role in ecumenical relations that is often supposed by clergy!

(Are you still against an academic chair of religious sociology, Father Thomas Soroka? )

Alex

I know of a Spanish priest in the UAOC sobornopravna who is blessed to use the Mozarabic rite.

Also, some of the Milan Old Calendarists use the Ambrosian rite.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Rony and Alex,

Here is that article.
http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v11n2/macomber.pdf

The relevant passages are on pages 11 &12. I mixed it up a little bit. The author does state some were induced to accept the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Syriac but that the surviving Baghdad church accepts Russian Orthodox "dogma" but not its jurisdiction or liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Fr. Mark and Fr. Deacon Lance,

I don't know which of you I love and esteem more!

I just don't . . .

Alex

There is a brief article called "House of Studies: A Western Rite Perspective" in the latest Antiochian Orthodox Word Magazine.

http://www.antiochian.org/Word_Magazine/WordCurrent.pdf

Dave

Dear Rony,

I attended the Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox conference here in Toronto some years back where Fr. Schneirla led the workshops.

It seemed to me that Fr. Schneirla was speaking from a clear Western theological perspective.

He defended, for example, the use of statues in Western Rite Orthodox liturgical usage.

He even made light fun of Eastern icons - he heard of a Western Rite priest who transferred to the Eastern Rite (Orthodox of course) and he quipped, "I guess he liked the icons with the big eyes" - at which the other Western Riters in attendance roared with laughter! (The joke was totally lost on me though ).

And he kept referring to this particular saint all the time, Saint Aw . . . Saint Augus . . ah, I know, Saint Augustine!

Have you heard ever heard of him?

Alex

Orthodox Catholic:

Yes course of course

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

Could you share with us some Chaldean Saints?

Also, are there Saints that you share with the Assyrians (I don't mean the Apostles etc. ).

Alex

Orthodox Catholic:

Here are some examples of Saints aknowledged by both the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church:

1. Rabban Hormizd the Martyr (aka St. Rabban Hurmezd)

2. Mar Yako of Nisbis (aka Mar Jacob of Nisibin)

3. Mar Quardakh (aka Mar Qardagh the Martyr)

4. Mar Shimon Bar Sabbae the Patriarch (aka Mar Shimun Bar Sabbae)

And, of course, there is always the well know Syrian Ephrem who is loved not just by those who adhere to the East Syrian tradition but the West Syrian tradition as well

God bless,

Rony