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ByzanTN,  The 'raptured' fish story is funny! Seriously though I am sure you and others here know that many evangelicals and others have strong convictions about what they believe is the soon-coming 'rapture'. Many of them and others have been encouraged in that direction by the popular fiction "Left Behind" series both in books and films. None of it resonates with good theology and/or good understanding of scriptures, but sadly there are many who believe it. Perhaps you have seen the signs on the back of cars about "Careful, when the rapture comes this car will be un-occupied". :rolleyes: Historically since the early Christian era there have always been those who anticipate a coming rapture and who have thought that the end times were imminent. Actually I think that the 'end times' have been here since the time Jesus and St. Paul walked the earth. It is a very long period of time and none of us really know the day or the hour of the end. Usually the enthusiastic movements which stress the rapture and the return of Jesus happen at the turn of centuries and even more so at the turn of the millenium. However, I did have a very well meaning friend who seriously believed that Christians were to be raptured in 1980. Her belief, as that of many right now, was that others will be left here to face the Great Tribulation while some(Christians) will be taken up and raptured. My thinking is that we are all right now in the midst of(maybe not the Great), but certainly, a great deal of tribulation. God rest that friend's soul, she is gone now and she did go the usual way. We do have one thing in common with those who now advocate the soon coming 'rapture." in that we, too, believe that in time the Lord will come back, there will be the resurrection of the body, and the redeemed will enjoy eternity with the Lord. Now that, in itself, is rapturous enough for me!  In Christ, Mary Jo
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Dear Tammy, I just wanted to tell you that your letter to that woman was beautifully written. It is so sad that there are so many bizarre 'visions' and lay people who want to change Church theology according to them. The evil one also works in mysterious ways.  In Christ, Alice
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Dear Alice,
Thank you. I wanted to be gentle so as not to break an already bruised reed. I haven't responded yet to her reply where she insisted that God would not have given Mary a less than perfect husband, etc. I have some thoughts in mind to tell her, and someone on another board had a very nice, succinct explanation that I'd like to use, but I don't want to quote him without his permission.
Tammy
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Here is the letter I sent June today: Dear June,
Perhaps the problem here is a misunderstanding of the Church's teaching of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
Mary was immaculately conceived NOT because Jesus need a good mother to set a good example for him and do a good job raising him. That is modern pop pyschology creeping into the Catholic mindset. Mary was immaculately conceived because the stain of Original Sin is transmitted from parent to child at procreation. She had to be immaculately conceived so that she would have no Original Sin to pass on to Jesus. Since Joseph was not biologically involved in Jesus' conception, his Original Sin could not be passed on to Jesus.
The idea of St. Joseph being immaculately conceived denies a crucial dogma in that by saying St. Joseph was immaculately conceived then you are denying Jesus as the new Adam and Mary as the only human free of sin ... as a positive belief rather than a negative rejection of a belief, this might not initially appear as denial of any Catholic dogma, but indirectly it denies the truth stated above. Error always goes against truth, even if indirectly.
Can you cite where Thomas Aquinas said he believed Joseph was immaculately conceived? The documentation you sent previously only said he believed Joseph was sanctified before birth. As I mentioned in my last letter, that does not equal immaculate conception.
I have checked with others that are theologically sound, and they said "This is a heretical belief, and you should steer well clear of it. You may want to confirm our opinions with a bishop or trusted priest."
Please understand that one of the first things the Catholic Church looks at in deciding the validity of a given seer is that person's obedience to the Church. One of the commands the Church has laid down is that visions and other such phenomena are to be submitted to the church and NOT promulgated to the public until such time as the Church has approved them. If the seer is disobedient to this command, as apparently this Tomkiel is, then their disobedience to the authority of the Church that God has put over them is disobedience to God himself. Such disobedience is a sign that their visions are not from God, but from the devil masquerading as an angel of light.
I am truly concerned for your spiritual welfare. False visionaries are stealing into the church and leading the sheep astray. I do not want to see it happen to you. Please, please check this issue with a priest or an apologetics apostolate such as Catholic Answers.
In Christ,
Tammy Kelly The second paragraph was what I plaigerized from someone on another board. I got his permission a few minutes ago.
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Tammy wrote to the woman in this thread: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Church does not teach that St. Joseph was immaculately conceived. The pious belief that he was sanctified before birth does not equal immaculate conception. St. John the Baptist was sanctified before birth, but was not immaculately conceived. You must be very careful about accepting beliefs just because someone says they had a vision. Mohammad had a 'vision' and started Islam. Joseph Smith had a 'vision' and started the Mormons. There is a group in Canada that call themselves Catholic, and due to a 'vision' of Mary they are waiting for the Rapture... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Very well stated, Tammy. And I will be praying for her for sure. Sorry I got a bit off topic by putting in my 2 cents to ByzanTN about the "Rapture." I think the woman's remark about "Just because the church doesn't teach it...etc.." is way off base because if the church doesn't teach something directly like, "St. Joseph was not an immaculate conception" the teaching of the church especially with visions, new doctrines, etc. is implied in what the Church does NOT say, if that makes any sense. I think there is a Latin and/or Greek word for that, but can't remember what. Maybe one of our scholars here knows. My red flag goes way up  when I hear someone thinking and promulgating they have a vision which the Church doesn't have......It is an area in which they are most definitely deceived and deception does not come from God. Be encouraged, she might have gotten adamant, but she needed to hear what you said. No accident you heard from her. God Bless, Mary Josephine >who was named after St. Joseph.
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Ok, guys, here is her reply to me. Now I'm really worried. Dear Tammy,
thank you for your reply. However, Original Sin is transmitted by the Father not the mother. I know St Joseph did not physically generate Jesus, but it is not the mother who generates life, it is the man who generates life into his offspring.
Only a man can transmit Original Sin into his offspring as the man's sperm is the life transmitter or life generator.
Jesus was conceived by the Power of the Holy Spirit, and the Life Force of Jesus, which already existed in Heaven prior to His coming down to the Earth, was placed in Mary's ovum or egg cell. So there was no Life Force in Mary to transmit Original Sin in the first place.
Nowhere in any of Mary's apparitions has she ever said she is the only one free of sin, these words have never come from Mary's own lips. And Mary has never said that Joseph was a sinner, this has never come from her own lips either.
In what way does Joseph being Immaculate deny Jesus as the New Adam?
Jesus still died on Mt. Calvary and gave His Life up in order to transmit perfect life to His Spiritual Offspring, which is us.
Joseph being Immaculate does not take away from Jesus it only glorifies Jesus all the more.
And Mary could only be truly happy with a Spouse who was like her not one who was inferior or deficient.
I will do some research on St Thomas Aquinas and get back to you, I do know that he beleived in Joseph being completely Immaculate.
I will get in touch with a Bishop and discuss this some more.
However, if you are going to say that all information on Joseph is from the Devil, just because it's not popular with some people, this is not right.
Remember, there are those within the Church who hate St Joseph and are themselves led by the Devil who also vehemently hates St Joseph, and if they could they would not only put Joseph in the background but they would also put Him out of the Church altogether. Even Bishops and Cardinals have been known to revile in a very mocking manner the Most Holy Virgin Father. I do not say this of all but I do say this of some.
Remember also, that without Joseph there would be no Saviour whatsoever, for there are a few times when Jesus could have been killed and not live to see Mt. Calvary, and then where would our Salvation be?
Please also remember that if you use a rule of thumb for Joseph it must be used for Mary, and so any or all her apparitions could be from the Devil appearing as an angel of light.
I suppose the only real way to detect any kind of truth in this matter is to ask if it is in harmony with the Holy Bible, is it cintained in Holy Scripture and if not then it must be from the Devil.
Does anything we beleive within the Catholic Church go directly against or violate what is contained in Holy Scripture? Then if so leave well alone! And that includes all things which go against Holy Scripture and not just some things. We cannot pick and choose what we like or don't like out of Holy Scripture.
All I can tell you about Louise Starr Tomkiel is that she is in good standing with the Church.
As I said before any information about Joseph is not popular and unfortunately He is the butt of ridcule among many. He is not really appreciated nor is He loved by many in the Church.
I think from now on I will make it my aim to make Reparation to Joseph for all the Sins and Blasphemies commited against His Most Holy Personage, for it is not right that He should suffer all these insults without someone to make Reparation to Him.
At the end of the day (I know that's a cleche), at the Final Judgment, all things will be openly revealed and then there will be no more doubts or arguments about what's true and what's not true.
I know St Joseph will vindicate Himself before ewveryone, and I am happy to submit myself to that. I know St Joseph does not lie and that at the time of the Final Judgement or even before, who knows, Joseph will reveal Himself in all His glory and no one will be able to call Him a liar ever again.
I am the Virgin Father's little handmaid, His little slave girl, and I place myself and all this into His tender care and keeping, may He bring about His vindication very soon. First of all, I've never heard any such thing that original sin is transmitted by the father and not the mother. That smacks of some early heresy to me. Second, she seems to think the Catholic Church teaches things that violate scripture. It seems she is really digging her heels in on these things. Should I continue to dialog with her, trying to find support in the Fathers and other church documents, or just give it up? Tammy
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Dear Tammy:
I believe you are doing a great charitable work struggling to convince this lady of her mistake. I noticed something in her response that makes me believe she's being, or has been, influenced by protestants in a certain degree. She speaks of the Virgin Father, if I recall correctly there's Tradition that states that St. Joseph was married and widdowed before knowing the Holy Theotokos, and from that previous marriage he had children, please correct me if I am misinterpreting something. He was chosen by God for being a just man and descendant from the house of David to fulfill the prophecies.
June is stating that all apparitions have to be in accordance with the Holy Scriptures only... so she is not considering the Holy Tradition, therefore it is possible she believes in the protestant idea of sola scriptura.
She may need to know the Tradition of the Church, so maybe she may be able to discern this strange idea she has of St. Joseph.
In Christ
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I don't know of anyone who thinks more highly of St. Joseph than I do. At the first sign of any difficulty, he is usually the 1st saint whose intercession I seek. I figure that if God trusted Joseph with the care of His son, he is someone extra special. St. Joseph has helped me time and time again. However, I have never heard St. Joseph called the virgin father. I wonder where this lady is getting her ideas, since it sounds like she isn't coming up with all this on her own.
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No, she's getting them from this Louise Starr Tomkiel, some seer that's right up there with Fr. Gruner and the Asylum City.
Tammy
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Tammy, I am not familiar with that particular "seer." I did encounter some folks here in Knoxville a few years ago, who were regularly going to Conyers, GA. They would bring back little pieces of paper with Our Lady's latest message. The messages always seemed to me to be of the "don't worry, be happy" variety. I don't understand it. Christ said that if we hear he is in the desert, don't go. That's good enough for me.
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Oh, these people are just the opposite. God is mad at us and if we don't return to pre-Vatican II ways, He is going to get us.  Tammy
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Tammy,
This sounds like the whacko associated with St. Joseph's Hill of Hope -- a group that, sadly, started in my Latin parish! Their teachings include the idea that St. Joseph was the incarnation of the Holy Spirit! These teachings were condemned by the Cardinal Archbishop of Los Angeles, Cardinal Mahony, the then Bishop of Orange Norman F. McFarland, and the then Bishop of San Bernardino Philip F. Straling (currently the Bishop of Reno). I do not have access to the documents that condemn this teaching, but I'm sure that if you wrote to any of the chancery offices involved you could get a copy.
Edward, deacon and sinner
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Wow, one would think they would get the message they are condemed! People don't understand obeidence these days. That in itself is a sign it is false, because they are persisting.
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For anyone who wants to read her "visionary" warnings of doom: EXCERPTS OF CERTAIN MESSAGES TO LOU...ECAUTIONARY MEASURES TO BE TAKEN BY ALL [ angelfire.com] Excuse the caps - I was too lazy to do other than cut and paste tonight. Don't bother with the link to her website, it's disabled or broken or the site is no longer extant. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by FrDeaconEd:
Tammy,
This sounds like the whacko associated with St. Joseph's Hill of Hope -- a group that, sadly, started in my Latin parish! Actually, that is the woman I wrote about (see previous page) in Palm Springs - - so you know all about her, eh? To be honest, though, having attended Mass at that parish a few times on my way to/from Phoenix, I'm not surprised that there have been some reactionaries spawned there, because unfortunately they seem to have plenty to react TO - it's become a rather, shall I say tactfully, "modern", church, hasn't it?
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