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#80667 11/10/03 01:53 PM
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Dear Alice,

Dishwashing is simple!

Cleaning the bathroom bowl - now that's where REAL men put their machismo to the test! wink

And monks and priestly celibates think that their way of life is ascetical . . . They're "wimps" by comparison to us married guys wink

(I've learned to keep some moisturizer around for silky, smooth hands. There is nothing worse than rough skin . . .).

Alex

#80668 11/10/03 01:56 PM
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Dear Ilya,

Yes, you are right - that's what it would be in Ukrainian.

The Russian and Old Slavonic in Russia doesn't use the vocative case and leaves it as "Xpuctoc."

Contemporary Russian seems to ignore the vocative case altogether: "IBAH!" as opposed to "IBAHE!" in Ukrainian.

Alex

#80669 11/10/03 02:09 PM
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Dear Friends,

The Lestovka was developed by the Russian Church in the 15th century, according to one Old Ritualist source I've read.

St Basil the Great it was who prescribed the prayer rope as we know it today with 100 knots divided every 25 with a larger or a divider knot.

And this was used for saying the Jesus Prayer according to either the Rule for the Psalms or the Horologion or the rule given by one's spiritual Father.

The Lestovka was designed to keep the features of St Basil's prayer rope i.e. it keeps the three large "babotchki" or divider steps, but arranges them differently.

At either end, as we see from Diak's picture, there are three larger steps for a total of six and with the three in the body of the lestovka this makes nine - for the nine choirs of Angels.

The first series of 12 steps before the first divider step is in honour of the Apostles.

Then comes 38 smaller steps - for the weeks and two days that our Lord spent in the womb of His Mother.

Then comes 33 steps for the 33 years of our Lord's life.

Then 17 steps for the prophets (16 + John the Baptist).

I've heard mention of seven moveable pieces at the end - but I don't know where these are or what their purpose is, other than symbolic. The Old Believers make it a rule to say seven prayer ropes daily as a minimum - in honour of the seven Mysteries or sacraments.

One says the Prayer of the Publican on the first three larger steps as a beginning to the Lestovka and ends with the Psalmic ending "Glory be . . . Alleluia, Alleluia, Glory to you, O God (3 times) Lord have mercy (3 times) and Glory be . . ."

The Old Believers do not say the Alleluia three times, but only twice and then the Glory to You, O God (Stoglav Council).

A Tsar once heard a Psalt sing the Alleluia twice only - and he got so upset, believing this to be a heresy, that he went up to the monk and struck him on the face right in church!

But this isn't a denial of the Trinity - the Glory to You, O God is the completion of the commemoration of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

On the three divider steps in the body of the Lestovka one says: Remember me O Lord when You come into Your Kingdom (first one) Remember me O Master when You come into Your Kingdom (second) and Remember me O Holy One when You come into Your Kingdom (third).

Or one may say the Hail Mary on the divider ones, as is done by many Old Ritualists.

To say the Lestovka in Church as a community, the monks stood while the Ihumen began saying the Jesus Prayer out loud three times (and you started on the section that has 33 steps).

Then the brothers made thirty prostrations to the floor with the Jesus Prayer.

And then they stood as they recited the remainder of Jesus Prayers in silence.

This rule is still the most widely used Russian monastic rule - and is outlined in Jordanville's book on the monastic prayer rule.

The Lestovka is what St Seraphim of Sarov prayed on.

There are actually two types of Old Ritualist Lestovkas.

The other is called the "Bogarodychnaya Lestovka" or the "Lestovka of the Mother of God."

It is composed of 150 smaller steps divided every ten with a larger divider step.

On this are recited the 150 Hail Mary's and 15 Our Fathers.

I heard that the West has a similar practice, but I'm not sure.

Does anyone know about it? wink

Alex

#80670 11/10/03 09:06 PM
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Alex,

And I thought the Rosary was complicated, compared to the chotki! biggrin

Tammy

#80671 11/11/03 03:41 AM
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Alex,

Do you know where I could get a Bogarodychnaya Lestovka?

Thanks,

Justin

#80672 11/11/03 04:12 PM
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Justin, take a trip up to Woodburn, Oregon sometime to the Old Rite community there.

#80673 11/11/03 05:14 PM
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Alex, you crack me up :rolleyes:

#80674 11/11/03 05:40 PM
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Dear Justin,

The Bohorodychna Lestovka would have to be made by someone who makes Lestovkas.

I tried to order it from a contact in Kyiv, but to no avail.

It is never taken to Church, as the regular Lestovka is, but is used privately.

There is a gentleman associated with the Nativity Old Rite Church in Erie, Pennsylvania who makes Lestovkas.

Perhaps the site that Diak listed here could get in touch with someone in Russia who could make one for you.

Sorry I'm not much help!

Alex

#80675 11/11/03 05:42 PM
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Dear Tammy,

Actually, one can just pray the Jesus Prayer without the additional prayers on the Lestovka.

But the more complicated way is the way the Old Believers use it. :}

Alex

#80676 11/11/03 05:44 PM
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Dear Coalesco,

Good! smile

The fact remains that what is known as the "Rosary" in the West has been with the East much longer.

A case of "Byzantinization" of the Latin Church, I suppose . . .

Alex

#80677 11/12/03 04:30 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Ilya,

Yes, you are right - that's what it would be in Ukrainian.

The Russian and Old Slavonic in Russia doesn't use the vocative case and leaves it as "Xpuctoc."

Alex
Alex,

Wrong about Church Slavonic. Just look in any text and you will find over and over Господи, Боже, Хрїсте, Отче and Богородице. All in the vocative. How do you say "Lord, have mercy" in Slavonic? "Our Father"? When you say the "Hail Mary" in Slavonic don't you start "Богородице Дево"? That is all in the vocative. I have never heard anyone say the Hail Mary Богородица Дева (sorry no yat' on this). The liturgical texts are usually strict about this if the imperative mood is used, the vocative case is used.

The form Ilya questions is simply a strange form combining what appears to be the 2nd person singular imperative with the nominative. This peculiar form exists that way in the spoken language, it does not represent correct grammar, but it represents the living language as used until today.

Russian seems to have kept these forms for spiritual vocabulary and even Slavic languages such as Slovak where the vocative is not part of daily speech have the vocative in church services (hence "Pane, zmiluj sa").

Антώнїй

#80678 11/12/03 12:01 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

The fact remains that what is known as the "Rosary" in the West has been with the East much longer.

A case of "Byzantinization" of the Latin Church, I suppose . . .

Alex
Yes, of course.

There is a myth abroad that the Latin church is very monolithic, not so. It has undercurrents of different spiritualities running through it.

The West has always been open to outside influences to a great extent, and then often takes the practices or beliefs to new unheard of levels.

Both a blessing and a curse I guess.

Roman Catholicism doesn't apply the same type of litmus test to these things we might expect, and consequently isn't alarmed when practices flow out from it either.

Such practices as the rosary and the stations of the Cross are two examples of eastern devotions brought to the west by pilgrims and visiting clerics.

And the Advent wreath is from the Lutherans! Who would have expected that? Pews are a protestant invention primarily. It seems the pew went from the Calvinists, to the Romans to the...Greeks?

As well stated in another thread you can't blame the pews in Greek Orthodox churches on Latinization, it's just part of the free-flowing exchange of culture in our society.

Some times we get hung up on all this.

Michael

#80679 11/12/03 03:01 PM
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Dear Michael,

Some would also say that "Protestantizations" came into the RC Church as Protestant groups reconciled with Rome. The earlier Protestant "Reformed Catholic" groups like the Waldensians and Hussites did reconcile with Rome, or at least certain groups did (the Hussite Calixtines).

Even the very idea of a "chapel" is a Protestant innovation.

The RC Church allowed all these trends and currents to enter into it also because Rome saw and sees itself as the Mother of all Churches etc.

It mattered not which traditions or rites one followed - only that one believed and practiced the essence of the Catholic faith.

Notable exceptions include the rejection of the Chinese Rites in the time of Matteo Ricci - until their acceptance in 1946. But by then China was lost to the Church.

Alex

#80680 11/12/03 03:03 PM
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Dear Anthony,

Correct - but some of the grammer the Old Believers used was "off" and modern Russian tends not to use the vocative case and I keep hearing "Antoniy!" rather than "Antoniyu!"

Proper OCS keeps the vocative case as does proper Ukrainian and other Slavic languages.

I've seen modern Russian translations of the Our Father that do not use the vocative.

I don't know why this is, and it is the first I've heard of it - but I'm assured that that's the way it is.

Oles'

#80681 11/12/03 03:26 PM
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Dear Alex,
Perhaps some day the Lestovka will be as popular in the west.

But then, someone is likely to claim the Lady in Blue gave it to them.

Michael

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