www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology suggestions for byzantine catholic churches

Lance, Visit us and see! Choirs are NOT the enemy.

John
Holy Trinity BC Church
New Britain, CT

http://www.byzantines.net/Holy Trinity/

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

"...what would I do here? There would be nothing to do except make perohi a few times a year..."

Please don't sell these people short. There are many, MANY parishes where the Perohi Ladies are the backbone of the parish. Without the financial support of the Pirohi Ladies and Rolling-Pin Brigade many of our parishes would have closed their doors long ago.

I know of many parishes in NE PA that have had their ENTIRE church renovated with the proceeds of the Pirohi Ladies and the Rolling-Pin Brigade.

The Rolling-Pin brigade at my parish just made 700 nut, poppyseed, lekvar and apricott rolls on Wednesday and Thursday of this week. Our church Festival is on Saturday starting at 10:00. These goodies will be gone by 1:00.

This is one of the major fund raisers for my community. The funds from this Festival will go towards renovating and up-grading the kitchen and bathroom of our rectory.

We are planning already for the Festival on Palm Sunday weekend. The proceeds from that Festival will send our young people to the World Youth Day in Toronto next year.

I agree whole heartedly that no one should mention the "pyrohy ladies" (and men) or other such traditional activities in a Greek Catholic Church in a condescending manner. If Walter's wife does not care to make pyrohy, than that is her prerogative and yes, there are many other activities to be involved in, as some of you mention, although, from the tone of things, it is not probable that she would take an interest in washing altar linens or pressing vestments either. Please forgive me if I am wrong, but that's the way it came across and I feel that I have to defend our dedicated workers, who can roll a roaster full of holupki better and faster than any professional food service business in the country.

Unfortunately, there have been many instances in which our parishes have not had the amount of activities that a Roman church would have, whether they are programs for children and youth, adult education, outreach to those who are ill or shut-in, community activity, etc. We have lost many parishioners to RC parishes over the decades for this very reason. However, I think that today, there are such functions in a good number of parishes.

Ultimately, one must consider church membership for the sake of spiritual fulfillment, not for the purpose of entertainment or social activity, although these do compliment the liturgical life of a particular church and build community among the parishioners. We are what we are, and if one's heritage is in the Eastern Church, then it should be maintained, no matter how difficult the situation may be. Also, there are many who are drawn to the spirituality of the East, as is obvious from this forum, and these too should be welcomed to find the nourishment that they need.

Never should any of us, clergy or laity, attempt to accommodate new or potential members by making concessions in the liturgy that we feel will appeal to them more, nor should those searching for a spiritual home, come to one of our churches and immediately look for ways in which they can be reminded of their former parishes. This was the experience of one Latin Rite family that joined our parish when I was young. They were nice enough people, but clearly looking for a "magesterium-sanctioned" version of the Tridentine Rite. One remark of the wife/mother of the family will always stay with me: "I really love the 'mass' in Slavonic because it reminds me of the old Latin mass." I could only wonder why it reminded her of the Latin mass, because there are really so few similarities, if any. I can only conclude that it reminded her of such because she could not understand what was being said in either case.

Trying to accommodate Roman Catholics by adopting some of their customs just does not work and is not fair. In essence, this happened far to often during the dark period of "latinization" that we hear mentioned so much in these posts, and to try to do a modern interpretation of latinizing, by inventing ministries along the lines of what is now practiced in the Latin Rite would be ludicrous. Please, I do not discourage Romans from discovering and coming to love our church. I just ask that it be taken at face value, for what it is, not what some may think it should be.

That is not to say that we can't learn new ways to minister and reach out, and if these are in harmony with the spirit and culture of our church, then I think it is actually desirable to consider them. There are some aspects of ministry which are neither Byzantine nor Latin, but are simply Christian. As the church has done throughout the centuries, we today also need to address the needs of the changing environment in which we live. The liturgy however, while meant to express the faith which it serves, is an integral part of a particular church's heritage and experience, and as such, cannot be changed to suit the tastes of even a majority of parishioners. This is not the place to discuss liturgical reform, but to say the least, any attempt at this would require the permission of the eparchial bishop, and major reforms would merit the attention of the universal church, of which it is virtually impossible to organize at this level.

Cantors and congregational singing have always been one of the most positive trademarks of the Ruthenian tradition and this is something that we can all be proud of. Most parishes have had fair to excellent success with congregational participation and I don't see the difficulty of following along with an accomplished cantor, even if one is not familiar with the music at first. In my home parish, we had the blessing of decades of service from a professional, "cantor & teacher's college" educated "professor" and this surely paid off in the way that the parishioners participated in all of the services. Choirs also have their place in our tradition, but never as a form of entertainment for the congregation, to exempt them from singing, but rather, to lead all of the worshippers in prayer. Sometimes, in choir-parishes, there is a legitimate concern for lack of congregational singing and we have to be cautious of ideas such as "concerts" during the Divine Liturgy, which imply entertainment. I have noticed that in the Russian style of churches, including particularly the OCA, that the time during the priest's communion is referred to commonly as "the concert" during which the choir will sing this or that piece of composed music. Any such "spectator" implications have to be avoided to maintain the true spirit of liturgical worship which is exactly, "the work of the people."

People coming to a church for the first time should not "notice a problem as soon as they read the bulletin: NO MINISTRY OPPORTUNITIES!" I just don't believe that to be true. They could instead inquire, as some of you have suggested, with the priest, council president, or other involved person, as to what the activities in the parish are. With the exception of probably Eucharistic minister, I don't see what other activities of Walter's wife would have to be curtailed: "This is a woman who was a past president of the St. Vincent de Paul conference at our parish, a lector, president of the women's sodality group, and currently, a Eucharistic Minister to the elderly at nursing homes." All or most of these things should be feasible in a Byzantine parish. If there is not a chapter of the St. Vincent de Paul Society, why not inquire about starting one? I know that this organization does good work. If the priest or parishioners don't like the name, then perhaps a charitable organization dedicated to an Eastern saint, such as the "Apostolate of St. Nicholas" would work. If there is not enough interest or membership in the parish for this, then I don't see any reason why she would not be able to continue working with the St. Vincent group at an area Roman church.

These are just my contributions to an already well done conversation. I couldn't let the opportunity go by to add my thoughts, especially about the many years and hours of hard work sacrificed by our people for the financial stability and further beautification of their parish churches. God grant them many years.

Joe Lavryshyn

Sometimes, I find it difficult to keep up with all the activities. We take bus trips. I sing in the choir. I do door to door visitation. I team teach both a children's ECF class and an Adult Bible Study. I give my testimony at a monthly open house, etc., etc. I think once you get involved you will have plenty to do.

Dan Lauffer

How eloquently stated! Alas, this is at the same time a description of a debilitating weakness in our Byzantine Catholic parish life. Too much depends on the qualities of the pastor. Just by observation, our "live," prospering parishes are graced with pastors who are fine administrators, excellent communicators, and have finely-honed interpersonal skills. They are enthusiastic and visionary and nurturing. They are also far too few. Parishes with pastors who "love the altar" but are reclusive, cannot communicate, are uncomfortable dealing with women and children, are outright frightened of teenagers just seem to hurt all over. There is no edifying constellation of active faithful that can "revolve" in a manner edifying to all because the center or pastoral "hub" is so ineffectual.
The old, reflexive and clerical "looking to Father" attitude is something the Roman Catholic Church has pretty much successfully gotten over; it would be well for us Byzantines to do likewise.

Just my two kopecks from a simple fool.

Not such a simple fool.

You are quite correct, and the "pastor makes the parish" effect is doubled and redoubled in parishes where there is no parish council.

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Actually, I know of no other Christian Church or denomination that models its concept of "the ministries" on the (lay) branches stemming from a (pastor's) trunk, though this may be a prevalent and unfortunate misconception. The theology of ministry since Vatican II has grounded itself in the distinction between the "royal" priesthood (to be exercised by all by right and responsiblity of one's Baptism) and the ordained priesthood.

An ordinary kind of fool.