www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology On salvation and believing in the office of the Pope as Catholics believe

Now it's almost two in the morning, but I just thought of this and had to ask...please advise me if I've gotten any of the facts wrong below. Thanks!

Question:

It is said that the Catholic Church believes itself to be the fullness of the Church of Christ, and that the Orthodox, while not in communion with the Catholic Church fully, nevertheless are very close, and have the Holy Mysteries which Catholics have, etc...basically, everything except the Pope.

The Orthodox generally don't comment about the validity of the Mysteries of Churches outside its communion.

Now the Catholics believe (or so I was taught) that if you believe in the teachings regarding and authority of the Pope, and yet still stay outside of the Catholic Church, one's salvation is on slippery slopes.

But the Orthodox, once again, have everything the Catholics have (so the Catholics believe), except the Pope.

So does Catholic doctrine teach that a person who believes in the teachings regarding and authority of the Pope the way Catholics do (head of the Church, infallibility, etc.)--does such a one place his salvation in jeopardy if he stays Orthodox or becomes Orthodox from a non-Catholic background, even though the Orthodox "have everything except the Pope"? Is he in the same sense of jeopardy that a Protestant under the same circumstances would be if he stayed Protestant rather than becoming Catholic? Or is the one converting to Orthodoxy or staying Orthodox, while believing the Catholic stuff regarding the Pope, in a better position because he belongs to a true Church?

Looking forward to answers...

Thanks again! And now, off to bed with me...

Slava Isusu Christu!

Typically if a person believes every Dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church, in union with the Holy Father, and there was a local Catholic Church nearby for him or her to receive the Sacred Mysteries, and that person did not become a Catholic, but remained in a Orthodox or Protestant Church it is considered a grave sin. Again the Church teaches that one is accountable for what he knows about the Faith; and because the Church teaches that the Orthodox have Grace in the their mysteries, an Orthodox Christian may attain the vision of God in Heaven. Protestant Christians may also attain the glory of Heaven by virtue of their common baptism which unites them imperfectly with the Catholic Church. But, again one who knows the Catholic Church contains everything needed for salvation and believes what She teaches about the Pope, and does not enter Her Communion, and has every opportunity to do so, it would be a grave sin for that person to delay the "day of salvation" so to speak. But, only the Lord knows the heart, and again we have a most kind and loving God.

Many Years to all of you!

In the Mother of the Light:

Chief Among Sinners, Robert

Dear Catholicos,

The way I see it is this:

If one believes that the Catholic Church is the Way to go, then one should belong to it formally.

If one believes that the Orthodox Church is the Way, then one should belong to it.

If one believes that the Anglican . . . see my drift?

One's conscience is to be obeyed.

Now, I have met people who have, for personal and other reasons, remained within their communions, even though they had come to believe in the "greater truthfulness" of another (Catholic or Orthodox).

Also, there are others who believe there is no real difference between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, so membership in either is of no matter.

I as a Byzantine Catholic once went to lunch with a wonderful Orthodox bishop.

We had a religious discussion where I told him my Byz Cath point of view on many matters.

He tended, for the most part, to agree with me and we really couldn't see where we differed, apart from the formal membership in our two respective Churches.

But if you, Catholicos Mor Ephrem, believe the Catholic Church to be your "one and only" then your conscience is obligating you to join it.

If you believe the Orthodox Church is . . .

You know what I mean.

(How's your love life?)

Alex

Mor Ephrem:

I, along with the rest of my family, will be received into the Orthodox Church (OCA) this Saturday Yeah!

I struggled as a Roman Catholic with the issues of infallibility and indulgences. Alex wrote that one's conscience should be obeyed when joining a particular church. I think that is true. I wanted to stay Catholic, but I had a hard time reconciling the faith of Catholicism (papacy, etc...) with my prayer life and my theological studies. Finally, my conscience caught up with my intellectual conclusions and I (or, rather, God) decided that it was time for me to become Orthodox.

Do I believe that the Orthodox Church is the true Church? Yes.

Do I believe that the Catholic Church is lacking the fullness of the one Faith? Yes.

Do I believe Catholics can be saved? Of course!

Do I believe that if I remained Catholic I could still be saved? Maybe not. (I might not be saved as an Orthodox )

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

This statement is true...but not in the sense of "membership", per se. Through the Church, Protestants, Atheists, Democrats , Wiccans, etc...can be saved. What man can put a limit on God's grace?

Dear Gregory,

How wonderful to hear from you!

The OCA is very lucky to be getting you. If you ever have second thoughts (hee, hee), we would love to have you back!

Speaking for my own conscience (such as it is . . .), purgatory and indulgences would not have been the items that would have made me Orthodox, but they probably would have made me become Byzantine Catholic.

Now, having said that, I really DO think they can be understood in a way that is not as juridical as they sound.

The Orthodox St Peter Mohyla of Kiev did personally subscribe to the doctrine of purgatory as did some others as John Meyendorff discussed in his work.

The theology behind indulgences, while not indulgences themselves, is somewhat reflected in Eastern theology or can be without doing integral damage to it.

I find the spirit of penance and "podvig" in the East to be much more ascetical than that in the West.

If anything, the works prescribed for indulgences in the West today are "wimpish" by comparison to the Eastern rules of prayer.

But I think it would be wrong to equate one's membership in a given Church or jurisdiction as part of a kind of mathematical equation: this plus no that equals ___ (fill in the name of the Church).

There was a time in my life when I was so seriously thinking of becoming Orthodox that I went to see an Orthodox priest, then a bishop about it.

They agreed I was definitely worth receiving, but that I should stay where I was.

I still wonder why they said that.

Do you think it was the papal flag pins I wore? The large rosary and scapular?

Hmmm.. . It's still all a great mystery to me.

Good luck and may God bless you richly as you enter into communion with His Church in the Orthodox Church in America.

(If you see Brendan, please say, "High" in tribute to his intellect!).

Alex

I agree with Alex on this one -- one's conscience must be obeyed, in light of one's personal circumstances.

All things being equal, if one believes that the Catholics are right about what they teach, it would seem that communion with that Church would be the best course. Not to nit-pick, but communion is the critical element as well, not just personal belief. One must not only be personally convicted of the truth of Catholicism, but one must be personally in communion with the Catholic Church as well, to solidify and manifest that personal conviction and make it bear fruit through communion.

Personal circumstances, of course, are important. I know folks who share the convictions of another communion but choose to remain where they are for a variety of reasons relating to family, children, personal relationships, pragmatic factors -- just to name a few. Some people can't tolerate that, but others can and do just fine with it -- I think it's an individual thing that only the person can decide, or, rather, discern, for himself.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

High, Big Guy!

Alex

Brendan wrote: I agree with Alex on this one -- one's conscience must be obeyed, in light of one's personal circumstances.

You are right. And this can go both ways. Sometimes one must follow one's conscience even when one's personal circumstances (i.e., family, location, etc...) make the decision all the more difficult. On the other hand, sometimes one's personal circumstances would make it unwise and less spiritually beneficial to convert. I was blessed. I did not have the barriers that some people have. Although, not having the same faith as your parents, friends, etc is not easy either.

I am not trying to judge those who stay put. I was just relaying my own experience.

BTW, Alex wanted me to give you a big "High".

Greg

Dear Gregory,

Please, my brother, and this is addressed to you and your family, reconsider what you plan on doing. Alex my friend, I cannot in good conscience share your enthusiasm here.

Gregory, I cannot judge you but for the sake of your soul and those of your loved ones, I implore you to remain where you are.

I offer you no theological discussions, but merely my very strong fraternal concern.

You are in my prayers. I ask yours in return, for my sinful self.

In IC XC
Samer

Hi Greg --

I agree with you. It can be difficult, and therefore the only person who can really discern what to do is the person himself.

Samer -- Ugh.

Everyone is entitled to his opinion and voice, but I thought that at least the regular posters on this board tried to refrain from overtly encouraging or discouraging specific individuals from taking specific actions regarding church affiliation and related matters. That kind of post, in my opinion, sullies the discussion. I would suggest that if these opinions and sentiments are to be expressed to individuals, this should take place off-board.

Brendan

Gregory - "Do I believe that the Catholic Church is lacking the fullness of the one Faith? Yes. Do I believe Catholics can be saved? Of course! Do I believe that if I remained Catholic I could still be saved? Maybe not."


The logic confuses me, Gregory. You state that the Catholic Church is lacking the fullness of the one Faith, but believe that Catholics can be saved. First, what is the one Faith? Did all of the Gospel writers agree to the details? Did all of the Church Fathers agree to the details? If the UNITY or ONENESS of the Faith is a criteria of salvation, then we are doomed. The wonder of it all is the fact that our faith can be expressed in many traditions. Even the Eastern Church Fathers disagreed with each other. But my point is this: if the Catholic Church is LACKING, how can Catholics still be saved?

Your second illogic is your statement that those in the Catholic Church can be saved but maybe not you in particular. How is that? Is there something terribly wrong with you ontologically that what works for others in the Catholic Church cannot work in your case? How can that be? Your "maybe" gives the sense that the works of the Holy Spirit can be doubted. Do you doubt the efficaciousness of the Holy Spirit?

I would like you to figure out this line of thinking. It bothers me because it doesn't seem to mesh right.

Edwin --

The Vatican has a similar view about the Orthodox. In its essence on this point, Dominus Iesus says that the Orthodox churches are *lacking*, but that they are true particular churches. We are considered to be lacking because we do not hold to the fullness of Catholic truth, as defined by Rome -- but Rome does not, apparently, believe that this forecloses salvation for Orthodox. One is entitled to ask how serious, then, this "lacking" may be -- but it is, at least, a respactable position that is currently, at least, the official position of the Vatican on the matter.

Without putting words in his mouth, what I think that Greg was meaning was that he believes that (1) Orthodoxy has the fulness of the faith, (2) Catholicism does not have that same fulness, but that (3) Catholics and others can be saved, nevertheless, because we cannot foreclose that from God. There is always the possibility that God's mercy will extend to people who we don't think it will -- and that's really none of our business.

Greg's third point I think you missed entirely. What I think Greg was saying was that his salvation is not completely assured regardless of where he may be, in ecclesiastical terms. This is another way of saying that while we must have a firm and sincere Christian hope in our salvation, we nevertheless must not be presumptuous about it -- and especially be presumptuous about it based on our ecclesiastical affiliation (ie, "I'm Orthodox so therefore I'm saved"). Greg's expression here evidences a healthy spiritual orientation, in my opinion.

Brendan

While I respect Greg's right to share his faith journey here I also believe SamB has the right to share his view about the importance of communion with the Successor of St Peter on this board. After all, this is a Catholic board.

I took the same journey myself into Orthodoxy and returned to Catholicism for theological reasons. People here were pretty patient with me during my Orthodox period. Funny, I don't think I ever posted here my long post for my reasons for returning to the Catholic Church even though I had posted many pro-Orthodox posts during my Orthodox period. Not really an oversight. I guess I figured I'd done enough controversial stuff for awhile. If any are interested in that post feel free to drop me private email.

In Christ,

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Brendan - "This is another way of saying that while we must have a firm and sincere Christian hope in our salvation, we nevertheless must not be presumptuous about it -- and especially be presumptuous about it based on our ecclesiastical affiliation"


Unless one is going to be Orthodox?

I don't think so. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Php. 2:13) AFAIK, no right believing RC or Orthodox thinks that salvation is guarranteed for themselves. I suggest you read The Way of the Pilgrim. In it, you will not find the idea that salvation is "a done deal"--only certain evangelicals erroneously think that way.