www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Rosary & Choti (Prayer rope)

Hello!!! Two questions for all my Eastern and Orthodox friends.

1.) I was surprised at a recent pilgrimage by the number of people with devotion to the rosary.

In many Eastern Catholic parishes, is it a big devotion..with it regularly scheduled? It is said by a few weekly in my parish by a few older worshippers. I'm wondering about other places...

2.) I really love the chotki, but was hard-pressed at first to get information on it. Is the chotki ever used as a PUBLIC prayer by Eastern Catholics and/or Orthodox (like the rosary)? I don't think so, but have really never heard.

Thanks again folks & have a great Thanksgiving holiday!

Al

Al,

In every Eastern Catholic parish that I have ever visited-whether it be Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian, Chaldean, etc.- I have always seen parishioners who have devotion to the rosary.

It is among Ruthenian Catholic parishes that I have seen times for public recitation of the rosary listed in their bulletins. Usually, public recitation of the rosary takes place before the Sunday or weekday Divine Liturgy.

In my parish, devotion to the chotki and the rosary is about equal, although both devotions are not said aloud in my parish.
I have never though seen any Byzantine Catholic parish that has public recitation of the chotki.

Glory to Jesus Christ.

There are pages and links about both the rosary and the chotki on the Faith page of my site, which may be down today. The latter is entirely a private devotion among the Orthodox, except at a monastery somewhere in England founded by the elder Fr Sophrony. Monks and nuns wear the beads on their left wrists as part of the religious habit; a few nonmonk priests and laity do too but I�ve been told they�re not supposed to. Usually it�s convert laity who do; sometimes the ethnic old-timers mind (vigorously), sometimes not. This wearing of the beads is the only rare Orthodox equivalent to the public recitation of the rosary in Catholic churches.

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Al, the chotki and the rosary are different devotions. Eastern and Western Christians both use prayer ropes to pray and they repeat their prayers. Eastern Christians (Catholics and Orthodox call their prayer ropes "vervitza" or "chotki." Roman Catholics and Byzantine Catholics use the term "rosary" for their prayer rope.

After the Patristic period, Roman Catholics began to use their repetitative prayers on prayer ropes as background for meditation on the Mysteries of Salvation. In the 17th century this practice spread the Eastern Christians (Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox)

Dear in Christ Al,

May God Bless you!

The use of the Chotki is totally involved in the Prayer of the Heart, or what has been called the Jesus Prayer : Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. This prayer has always been part of the private prayer rule or devotion of many Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox clergy and laity. I do not ever recall any sort of "public" devotion related to this. The only experience which might come close has been the time I spent at St. Herman of Alaska Monastery in Platine CA. There, especially during any Lenten period, the Brotherhood would pray the "Optina 500" after Compline, publically and together in the Catholicon.

The Prayer of the Heart is more of a private devotion taken up by individuals or given as part of the Rule of Prayer by a Spiritual Director.There are no regular devotions related to it or to the use of the chotki.

unworthy servant

+KYRILL

Recently I was at a conference where during one of the breaks, someone in clericals (dunno if Orthodox, Catholic or what) made a rather nasty snide remark about people who wear chotkis. Bless me Father, but I'm one of 'em. It's an eminently practical method of carrying it about and keeping it close at hand for immediate use whenever opportunity strikes.

I'd never heard of any "prohibition" against layfolk wearing 'em until quite recently, and have yet to hear any plausible reason for discouraging the practice, so long as the chotki is there for use rather than decoration. How else are you supposed to carry it? Women's clothing is notoriously shy on functional pockets, belt loops & the like. I should put it in my purse? Thank you, no - I don't want to have to lug the thing around all the time.

So I guess I'll keep on offending, at least for now. Oh well, down the hatch.

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

The diocesan pilgrimages of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese always have a scheduled event "Group Recitation of the Jesus Prayer." I suppose this would qualify as public devotion.

Also, from what I have heard this was probably instituted to replace, on an official level, the informal practice of recitation of the Rosary which had been practiced at this Diocese's events in years past. A lot of their older parishes had Altar/Rosary Societies, even ones which were not originally united-Greek Catholic.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Fr Kyrill wrote:

The only experience which might come close has been the time I spent at St. Herman of Alaska Monastery in Platine CA. There, especially during any Lenten period, the Brotherhood would pray the "Optina 500" after Compline, publically and together in the Catholicon

Thank you, Father; I�d never heard of that being done that way.

RichC wrote:

The diocesan pilgrimages of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese always have a scheduled event "Group Recitation of the Jesus Prayer." I suppose this would qualify as public devotion.
Also, from what I have heard this was probably instituted to replace, on an official level, the informal practice of recitation of the Rosary

Obviously.

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

I always carry a chokti with me. I use it all the time. For some reason, I never went gaga on the Rosary - I had a "crazy" professor who told us we were going to hell if we didn't recite the rosary. I was so disgusted by that outrageous claim - I never prayed it in private again. I would join my parishioners from time to time. But I am not as passionate in promoting it as I do with praying the Jesus Prayer.

Would someone be kind enough to describe how to pray the Chotki (in English or Ruthenian.) Thank you, and may God Bless You. Sharon

I think it would be great if us who are Latins could use Eastern devotions, but at the same time, I think devotions like Novenas and, in my opinion, the pinnacle of devotions, the Rosary, would be highly efficacious for Eastern Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox). I know it might seem tautalogous, but I think it would really help to connect East and West if we "co-opted" each other's devotions.


God Bless!
Billy T.

Billy- Yes, we can all benefit by exploring the treasury of prayer and devotions which are the patrimony of the Church, keeping in mind that private devotions are PRIVATE devotions. As children in our Father's house, we have the freedom to use any and all devotions, or just a few.

The Rosary is a holy and praiseworthy devotion, and it has likely been the rope drawing many to salvation. It is not everybody's cup of tea, though, nor is it a requirement for salvation. To claim that it is the pinnacle of devotion, even the pinnacle of private devotion (leaving aside the public prayer of the Mass/Divine Liturgy) is to elevate YOUR vanilla (an excellent, super-premium vanilla) over MY chocolate (an excellent super-premium as well, and chocolate besides) and all of the other magnificently crafted "flavors" in the "freezer." Have you ever actually tried the pistachio fudge? If the Rosary speaks to your heart, thank our loving Lord, and His Blessed Mama. But please keep in mind (especially here on an Eastern Catholic board) that the Rosary is primarily a Roman Catholic devotion. It's french vanilla in a crowd which prefers butter-pecan. Hokay?
Lunch anyone?

Sharon L. - the chotki is a simple loop of knotted wool yarn or beads on a string, used for "counting" as you pray the Jesus Prayer. The loop is usually joined together with a cruciform braid terminating in a tassel.

Commonest English translation of the Jesus Prayer is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner." One of the Spanish-speaking folks on another List was kind enough to post the Spanish, "Senor JesuCristu, Hijo de Dios, ten piedad de mi, pecador." You move along one knot, or drop a bead for each repetition of the prayer. In "The Way of a Pilgrim" the pilgrim is told by his starets (spiritual father) to pray the Jesus Prayer a certain number (increasing over time) of times per day. If your chotki has 100 knots, if you pass the tassel 5 times, it's easy to know that you have repeated the Jesus Prayer 500 times. For those of us who aren't tracking statistics (I'm being flip - that wasn't the point for the Pilgrim either..)I think the chotki provides an anchor for "staying connected" as you pray. I know I'm less likely to wander off from prayer to daydream if I've got my chotki in my hand - but maybe I'm just easily distracted.


In Christ,


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

[This message has been edited by Sharon Mech (edited 11-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sharon Mech (edited 11-30-2000).]

<b><font color=blue>Beloved in Christ --

I just wish I could get the "hang" of what I am supposed to be experiencing in praying the chotki. I suppose this is one of those things that as a convert with a decidedly still quite Protestant mindset to overcome, I shall just have to be patient about.

I read about proper breathing techniques, meditations, etc. and quite frankly, I am somewhat at a loss. There is so much to learn.

We were talking about the various fast and feast days in the Church and after catechumen's class I mentioned to Fr. Szada, who teaches the class, that I thought that one reason the Protestant Rebellion became so popular was because people could have their "faith" without all the troublesome (to the flesh) disciplines which come with it.

He gave me a wry smile and said "I think there may well be a lot of truth in that statement"

Boy, you never know what an enemy the flesh is until you start trying to establish a constant rule of prayer (something Protestants don't do AT ALL!!).

Other than my deep frustration at finding out just how unspiritual a person I really am, things are going nicely. You know, to be considered a "spiritual person" in Protestantism, you just have to be able to regurgitate your assembly's doctrinal statement on cue and avoid the outward sins (drunkeness, fornication, theft, gambling, smoking, drinking, etc.). Such behavior qualifies you as a "spiritual giant".

How different this faith is with the demands of the Church that we be active in co operating with the Holy Spirit in our theosis. And how much faith one has to have to believe that anything positive is happening when you see nothing happening at all!!

Brother Catechumen Ed