www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology New Byzantine Catholic, concerned about Revisions of the Divine Liturgy

Dear Incognitus,

I personally don't think that a rejection of books by another constitutes being "anti-literate."

I know djs and I know that he is a scholar in his own rite, so there really is no need for what appears as great condescension in your self-proclaimed "scholarly discussion."

Liturgical rubrics in our Churches often go well beyond detached scholarship and, as has also happened at ecumenical councils, end up in name-calling and all sorts of things like that.

And I say this as someone who agrees with what you say and disagrees with djs on this issue.

Having said that, Sir, and if you are still willing to converse with me, can "Easternization" occur in Eastern Churches that have long been in union with Rome? What about the liturgical/ritual renaissance in the UGCC, Latinized parishes and religious Orders notwithstanding?

Also, what happens when the very issue of "Easternization" for an EC Church, like the UGCC, tends to be seen in perspectives other than religious?

I mean when people sometimes understand greater Easternization by the "Vostochnyky" as a tendency characteristic of Russification?

I will read any books you recommend, so I'm not anti-literate.

But I do tend to understand things from my own perspective and bias.

Don't we all?

Alex

Friends,

I have stayed out of this discussion because I cannot fathom how the changes, whatever exactly they are, whether made or unmade concerns me or the even how they will affect the future of the Church. I have also remained aloof because I doubt that I have anything I'm capable of adding.

These issues may be important. I simply do not know. I have determined that my energies will be placed in areas of my ability. What I can discern of the proposed changes will not affect my determination to remain in the BCC. I do not plan to become aware of these subtle nuances but rather put my energies with Father Thomas Loya who is leading our Church in renewal.

God bless those who are astute in this area. I wish you the best and I shall be in prayer for you.

I shall continue to recruit those who are interested into areas of evangelism with which I have some gifts. No offense meant and none taken.

Dan L

Interesting straw man. If that is what you read into my posts, you are in error.

You may wish to consider only the long term trends, for whatever reason. The near-term trends are, however, the ones immediately relevant to the question of the cogency of perceptions.

No such rejection, specifically, at the level of "won't contribute anything to a scholarly discussion" has been made. You give some suggested readings, but do not discuss specific relevant content, the means of extrapolation to the present issue, or the pitfalls in that extrapolation. You ignore these problems when I point them out. In scholarly discussion literature is cited in support of objective facts. It is not scholarly to provide a reference as though it proves an argument about a new situation. It is an elementary logical error simply to argue to authority. The problem here is not anti-literacy. It is a a difference of opinion as to what is logical and scholarly.

I am not unwilling, but I am pessimistic for the reasons stated repeatedly, as to the logically probative value of the articles. You unwillingness to address those problems increases my skepticism about the their probative value. But we may agree on the latter point: on the basis of your persistent approach of providing no support for your claims other than to argue to the authority of these analyses, I will provisionally agree about what you have to offer.

Admin,

"Also, I have not encouraged a single individual to join his or her voice to mine. Neither have I even once encouraged anyone else to oppose official promulgations or be disobedient."

Forgive me. It was a poor choice to run my two statements together. I was not accusing you of encouraging anything. However, many on the forum have been personally critical of the bishops and committee, accusing them of hidden agendas, and proposing everything from writing campaigns to Rome to leaving the Church outright.

"There is not a single Byzantine Orthodox jurisdiction (or other Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction) that is contemplating similar mandates."

I think a review of the GOA's English text shows that some of the proposed revisions have indeed been taken by Orthodox jurisdictions making the above statement inaccurate. The GOA text suppresses the 1st and 2nd antiphon verses entirely, suppresses the second set of "Grant it O Lord" petitions and uses horizontal inclusive language.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Alex,
CHRIST IS RISEN! Sorry, but I know of no reason at all for me to prefer not to converse with you!
You ask "can "Easternization" occur in Eastern Churches that have long been in union with Rome?" - certainly; it has happened on several happy occasions. But at least in the examples I am thinking of (including the one you mention), it is a bit soon to tell what the upshot will be. Still, I'm actually hopeful in some instances.
If djs is a scholar in his own rite (an odd turn of phrase; did you mean "right"?), more power to him. That makes his sight-unseen rejection of two rather short books all the more inexplicable.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

None of my business, but I think you have more "Ukrainian" in you than you realize!

Alex