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Dear Joe,

Bravo! Bravo!

I believe that St Gregory's can do what you say and that the fact that they have found they can incorporate Byzantine and Oriental Orthodox traditions within an African and Jewish context etc. is good.

They have their goals and they are following through on them.

I personally have no intention of starting a devotional society to Malcolm X or Elizabeth I.

No one's perfect, and, as you say so lucidly, Joe, that includes us.

I wonder what someone from St Gregory's would say about BC's vis a vis Orthodoxy and Catholicism?

Come to think of it, St Gregory's doesn't look so bad now after all

Alex

Dear Serge,

Agreed.

And I think you've put your finger on the real contribution a place like St Gregory's can make.

If they were the real Church instead of "all dressed up?"

Isn't the problem that the REAL Church wouldn't allow such experimentation?

Doesn't St Gregory's make us look into ourselves as well?

Alex

Dear Friends,

Just a note on the "saints" of St Gregory's.

They are definitely of New Age variety etc.

But let us also remember that the Ethiopian Church venerates "St Pontius Pilate."

I have no problem with that, but I know those who do.

And didn't we expend our energy into more than 200 posts on the issue of St Photios?

In other words, one man's saints could be another man's demons. This applies to our Apostolic Churches as much as it does to St Gregory's.


Alex

Alex,

Thanks.

The real Church already has rites that do what these people are trying to do, but some of this creativity would not be out of place. Why not apply all that education and talent in the place where all these practices came from � the Church?

Doesn't St Gregory's make us look into ourselves as well?

While all of Brendan�s criticism is true, yes.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Serge,

Can you imagine if all our Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, in this country were as 'radical' in their faith? Now, what was that bit about a bushel basket and a light?

Ignoring their obvious heterodoxies, their website is absolutely wonderful. Can you imagine if every one of our Eastern parishes had a website like that? At least they don't have to get permission to BE Eastern from another Church.

How many of our churches have a "Plan" like theirs?

How many of us have a vision?

How many of us know what we are doing beyond Children's Bingo Night (of all things!) and fulfilling one's Sunday obligation?

How many of us feel as free to honor one of our own St. Photius in our parishes without having to debate with scholarly 'experts' from the same Communion?

How many of us are too d-mn shy to go beyond the absolute bare minimum one Psalm verse in our Antiphons because we are afraid of our own half-devoted parishioners from leaving due to long liturgies?

Joe
Cantor/Deacon-Student


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 05-16-2001).]

Dear Joe,

Not many, it would seem . . .

There are more Psalm verses in the Antiphons?


To quote St Augustine, "There are those outside the Church who appear to be inside, and those inside who appear to be outside."

I bow to your insightful and prophetic utterances - boy could we use you up here!

Alex

Joe --

I can admire the energy without admiring the cause. NARAL is also organized, focused, committed, passionate, but sorely misguided.

These people are looking for the truth, but they're trying to have that with their own liberal neo-pagan agenda -- that just doesn't wash with me.

The comparison to the EOC, while superficially appealing, is nevertheless inapposite. The EOC was following the traditions of Orthodoxy before it was received, not amalgamating it together with shinto, sufism, priestesses, active homosexuality, etc. The kind of spirituality we see here is very, very new age, in that it seeks to import traditions from various religions into one multicultural world religion -- well, that's very different from what the EOC were doing. After the EOC got to a certain point, the real issue with them became jurisdiction, finding the Church. These folks won't get there by doing what they are doing, because they are making up their own tradition, and amalgamating it with non-Christian elements.

Brendan

Brendan,

I understand what you are saying. But if they are interested in searching for authentic Early Church worship/Liturgy, then by showing them the way to that authenticity is our job. They are like the lost sheep.

Yes, they have not arrived at the same point as the EOC did before making the big leep. There ER visit may be tinging on a Code Blue before too long. We have to ask ourselves why they have borrowed from the Eastern Church so much in their haphazard search? There is more recognition and acceptance of our ancient and venerable traditions than in some other Western Churches - which I will leave nameless.

Our valid and orthodox and apostolic and catholic church is also tinged with New-ageism, consumerism, laziness, doctrinal and ecclesial relativism, materialism, and paganism and not to mention our own classic hybrid Latinisms. How many of our children have grown up with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Rudolph without EVER knowing St. Nicholas of Myra? And to think Nick was a Byzantine bishop!!! How many Western Christians know that? Probably as many who know the truth about St. Photius.

Serge mentions gay spirituality. But what about ANY spirituality that teaches or practices sex outside of marriage? Doesn't the Roman Catholic Church have ministries for gay priests? Dignity? So what is the difference? St. Paul blasts out his litany of non-marriage sexuality in Romans. How many bishops and priests have preached on this from the top of their lungs if our true faith means anything to them?


Joe
Cantor/Deacon-Student

In two words: Brendan�s right.

But Joe and Alex are right too.

Two blocks away from my city�s bohemian-fringe street (well, it used to be � now it�s more like a mall without a roof) is a jewel of a Ukrainian Catholic church, very Orthodox-looking and �old country� (priest from Over There) with �Mass� (yes, that�s what they call it) every Saturday evening attempted in English (and on Sunday morning in modern Ukrainian). God bless them, they put little signs outside announcing it. The congregation numbers about five; average age 70 (?).

What an opportunity for an apostolate to the hipsters, goths and would-be �mall rats� if the Ukrainian Catholic authorities so desired.

The Russian Catholic church in New York, St Michael�s, is in SoHo and does in fact draw young and/or unconventional people, body piercings and all, to its �ber-traditional Divine Liturgy (Slavonic and all) on Sunday.

Glory to God.

Serge

P.S. Joe: Dignity is not an official Catholic group. It dissents from Tradition on homosexual acts.

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 05-16-2001).]

Dear Serge,

Yes, you have a very good approach.

I remember meeting a very progressive Orthodox Bishop (how progressive was he? He said I could partake of Communion in his Church any time I felt I wanted to . . .).

He told me about his plans to take the Church to the people, in the malls, where they were.

He wanted them to taste the Liturgy and to experience spirituality, without, as a first priority of business, trying to "convert" them.

He himself, (like you, Serge) privately practiced some Western devotions, such as the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross. He was very conversant with the Ethiopian and other Oriental traditions. He had an Ethiopian prayer shawl (guys! I'm trying hard to locate some for you!).

He was also very traditional, walking in his robes and long pectoral Cross.

He came to see me at my place of work. As he walked down the hall, I could see tourists, janitors and others turn to look at him. Recognizing him to be a bishop in his beautiful robes,they smiled. Some, who were RC, crossed themselves (alas, to the left . . . ) and asked for his blessing which he gave without, gasp, asking what jurisdiction they belonged to or whether or not they used the Filioque . . .

I was very sorry to see him leave after lunch.

He was generating a lot of good electricity.

Judging by the smiles on the faces of those around him, I know it wasn't just me who was feeling it.

Alex

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry...it inspired both emotions.

Don

Dear Don,

Yours is a balanced spirituality then!

Alex

I, too, visited the St. Gregory website and found myself feeling like the 'deer in the headlights'.

I can understand and encourage their 'plan' to bring people to the Gospel and their desire to incorporate as many souls into their community as are willing to come.

I think, from an anthropological and psychological perspective, that they are searching out whatever 'religious' symbols, texts, music, and behaviors they can use to make the religious experience unique and (I hate to use this word ) challenging to the parishoners and visitors. They don't want it to be the 'same old, same old'.

Over the course of time, religious practices and even prayer can become stale unless they are spiced up with something different. Within schools of spirituality (Ignatian, Dominican, Franciscan, Francis de Sales, Teresa of Avila, etc.) there is a clear progression of the soul through stages. Teresa of Avila describes them as 'rooms' within the "Interior Castle". In order to make progress in the spiritual life, one has to move, that is: do something new to bring one closer to God.

For us Constantinopolitan kids, our liturgical life provides a ever-changing calendar of fasts and feasts, of Saints Days, of grape blessings, of flower blessings, vesper services, presanctified, kneeling Vespers, eucharistic liturgies, exaltation of the Cross processions, etc. [The plethora of books: typikon, pentecostarion, euchologion, etc. that guide us in our spiritual life is surely witness to this. Unfortunately we don't use nearly enough of them.]

The Western tradition, unfortunately for them in my opinion, focuses essentially on Mass. Vespers, which used to be celebrated on Sunday evenings up until the 1920s, disappeared. What's left? Nothing from the Divine Office of the Hours. Just benediction and public recitations of the Rosary. It is no wonder that para-liturgical activities like novenas, 40 hours, and 'missions' were developed to create something new. People starve spiritually when they are not provided with a 'balanced diet' (did I say that!?!?) of worship.

And this is precisely what this Episcopal community is doing. It's opening the ecclesiastical attic/archive, and pulling out all sorts of things to be used in the prayer life of the community. For this, I commend them. (I personally did not see any evidence of "new age crystals" or Sufism, or other such.) I think their ability to also look at Jewish elements of faith is a very positive thing. Some more 'liberal' Christians actually do a 'seder' during Lent to help understand the experience of passing from slavery in Egypt. It's a good thing, but perhaps we ought to focus more on truly being brothers and sisters to the Jewish community.

We Byzantines are extremely fortunate in having a wide variety of services available to us. Our liturgics contains not only scripture, but also volumes of odes, canticles, canons, akathists, etc. that provide us with all sorts of (relatively) new things that are not overused. In the current Western tradition, it's Mass-for-Happy, Mass-for-Sad, Mass-for-Wedding, Mass-for-Funeral, Mass-Against-Drought, whereas we have been blessed with all sorts of different liturgical services to address almost any need. (We even have the blessing of automobiles on the feast of St. Elias! "Oh Lord, in your mercy, bless this Ford,......")

So, I think it might be interesting to visit St. Gregory's sometime (but the dummies never gave an address!!!). I think I would like to see what they do. But the real yardstick would be to see how they acted towards me: welcoming of a stranger, or somewhat filled with pride at their own accomplishments and trying to impress.

In summary, we Byzantines have a whole mess of liturgies and ceremonies to cater to our every spiritual need. And, under the guidance of our spiritual father/mother, we can make progress in the spiritual life without going outside our inheritance. Our western brethren are oftentimes stuck in a rather mono-thematic liturgics and (sorry to say) spirituality. It is no wonder that they unlock the Christian (and Jewish) archives and pull out whatever they can find to enhance their spiritual and liturgical life. (The "Jews for Jesus" is a prime example of this.) I could not condemn them for this but rather praise their sincere efforts, although I think I personally would feel rather 'confused' at the blending of religious, cultural and ethnic elements in their community worship.

But, hey! If it brings them closer to God, then go for it.

Blessings to all!
Christ is Risen!

[This message has been edited by Dr John (edited 05-17-2001).]

Dr. John,

There is an old saying that goes:

"A closed book is nothing but a block of wood."

Yes, we have a mess of liturgies and processions and music. But it is nothing but notes and text in books - blocks of wood - if never done. Fortunately, our parish priest opened that treasure chest long ago and I am still amazed how much of a bottomless pit of rich liturgies and treasures we have. What pains me is the need of some in our own church to 'search' for form or style elsewhere when we have so much already!

Open the books and sing praises the Lord!

The folks at St. Gregory's even invited an iconographer to teach how to write icons. This is another one of their attempts to search for that which will enhance and immerse them in a more vivid liturgical life than the usual stale bread. They may be misguided, but weren't the Western Christians overly concerned about Constantinople's cutting-edge liturgical movement during the First Millenium? Dumping the old Syrian Kontakion for the more involved Greek Canon? Sucking up like a sponge what the folks in Jerusalem were doing? That liturgical innovation went dead; now we are making sure we become liturgical purists. Is there such a thing as liturgical purity?

What are the usual 'events' in the lives of our parishes? Bingo? Picnics with 'warm beer' (to use a term from The New Oxford Review in the early 80s)? Traveling to gambling resorts? Luckily, there are many parishes doing more and actually leading us to true worship with 'alive' liturgies. But will our Church recognize those ministries which are trying to support that or will we wait for more instructions (without commentary or explanation) from a 'commission' still trying to get it right?


Joe
Cantor/Deacon-Student


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 05-17-2001).]

Dear Dr. John and Joe,

Thank you for your comments!

With respect to the seder, our Roman Catholic Archdiocese "up here" has an office for Christian-Jewish relations that encourages all Catholics to hold seders and there are several Catholic Churches in the Toronto area who have Passover Seders in their basements!

I am doing one next year for my Jewish uncle.

As for our rich Byzantine heritage, I remember the words of the Rev. Fr. George Couto (+memory eternal!), a Portuguese convert to the Byzantine Catholic Church, who said that he got on his knees every day (shouldn't he have been standing ) to thank God for bringing him to the Byzantine Church.

I learn something every day about our heritage.

Today, I learned about the tradition of bronze Icons and how they relate back to Moses and his placing of a bronze serpent in the desert etc.

Also, that people in Slavic Orthodox lands wore bronze serpents with their neck crosses.

I once came across an independent Orthodox community that used eight different Rites, Tridentine, Byzantine, Milanese, Mozarabic etc.

People who joined them could choose which Rite they felt most comfortable in.

And they are all encouraged to say their respective Divine Offices etc.

I feel at home in all the Orthodox Catholic Churches and Rites.

At least ST Gregory's shows a fundamental openness to them.

AT least the people there have an appreciation for the Christian East that we probably would not see in RC and other western circles.

Alex