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I personally did not see any evidence of "new age crystals" or Sufism, or other such.)

One of their ministers is a Sufi master.

I think their ability to also look at Jewish elements of faith is a very positive thing.

Of course.

Some more 'liberal' Christians actually do a 'seder' during Lent to help understand the experience of passing from slavery in Egypt. It's a good thing, but perhaps we ought to focus more on truly being brothers and sisters to the Jewish community.

I�ve been told Jews don�t necessarily like Christianized seders. (Having seen via the Web a Russian crucifix hung in a church with women ministers and �gay spirituality�, I can understand their not liking their symbols taken out of context.) The last suggestion here is the best.

The address for St Gregory�s is somewhere on their site (yes, a beautiful site), just not on the home page (!).

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Alex,

Yes, laugh a little and cry a little...usually at myself, but sometimes I can spare some of each for others :-) Why I said that I didn't know whether to laugh or cry is because I have very mixed feelings about what they are trying to do. Over the years I have had many friends who loved to pick and choose different aspects of various religious traditions. Too often they ended up with a mish-mash of stuff that might have a surface attraction, but rarely had any depth or solidity. And then it would be on to the next collection of myth and magic.

I congratulate St. Gregory's on trying to reach people with the Good News of Christ, but I question the way in which they are going about it. When you try to include too many traditions at the same time you end losing all of them....like mixing paints...you mix a bit of red and yellow and you get orange. You mix blue and yellow you get green. But if you mix red, blue, green, yellow, orange, etc. together you end up with a muddy brown that pleases no one.

Personal experience here: The local RC diocesan house of prayer used to be run by a priest of the diocese (since reassigned by a new bishop) who is a well known spiritual writer and I personally love his books. But the times I visited their community for Sunday Mass I was shocked. The chapel was very rustic, built on a slope with risers for seats. There was an icon of the Theotokos on the wall and a tabernacle with a candle in front of it. The "altar" was a manger from an old barn with boards across the top. No cross or crucifx in sight. Father vested for Mass using an alb and Jewish prayer shawl. During the Mass there were more quotes from Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem and other religious writings than from the Christian Scriptures. The words of the consecration were changed, so much so that I doubt it was truly a valid Mass. One would never have known they were at a Catholic Mass unless he or she were told so. And from what little I was able to pick up at this website, it seems that this is what they are aiming for.

This sort of thing disturbs me and in a way I find it disrespectful of the tradtions that are being used. It is like the people who buy old church furnishings and put them in their living room because it looks cool. That sort of thing bothers me...I don't know why.

My reasons for not liking this sort of thing is more from my heart than from my head. It just feels wrong to me. If it truly does touch hearts and bring people closer to God, then I am willing to do penance for these feelings...but does it do that??? Only God knows the answer to that question and so far He hasn't said anything one way or the other.

So I suppose the thing we should all do is leave St. Gregory's into the very capable Hands of God, hoping and praying that He will use them for His honor and glory. Who knows, He may just have plans for them that we know nothing about!

Pray for me a fool...hopefully for Christ, but sometimes just a plain fool.

Don

I agree that we Byzantines can be made uncomfortable when "OUR" religious symbols and texts are appropriated by others, and then are integrated into 'their' worship, apparently without an understanding of the community whence these symbols were generated. Should we be possessive of them?

In general, the reality seems to be that the underlying spirit of 'closeness to God' impels folks to seek almost everywhere for media to support this effort.

I know that many folks will be disturbed by the elements from outside the Christian patrimony that are being used to support the Christian effort. I'm not so sure that this is the reality.

We must remember that the journey to God is being made by individual souls. While we would hope that their spiritual help-mates/aides would come from our patrimony, we can't just judge them based upon where the information comes from. (Is it a 'sin' if I use Red Cross information to guide how we should be prepared to help our members in medical need? It's not "Christian" or from the scriptures, but it surely can help to save lives. So, we have a first-aid kit in the church building.)

What concerns me is the fact that Christians are willing to condemn the 'methodologies' of others that might be used by Christians, based upon the fact that these methodologies originated in non-Christian environs. For example, the Melkites have a Lenten custom of not eating during daylight hours -- a clear parallel to the Moslem practice of Ramadan - which is different from the usual Byzantine Christian custom. Do we condemn the Melkites and Antiochians for this practice since it apparently comes from the heathen Moslems? Hopefully not.

So, if an Episcopal church usurps a Sufi custom or a Protestant custom in order to try it out in helping Christians to become more aware of their Christian obligations, then I think it's appropriate -- as long as it does not violate Gospel teachings. Let's face it; our own traditions have 'developed' over time in response to the needs of the age. Are we going to say we have to adhere to the customs of some past century in order to be saved? We NEED to develop. We shouldn't be afraid of it.

Blessings to All!

Dear Don,

I can well appreciate what you feel and please don't call yourself a fool - if anything, you are a Fool for Christ's Sake, God's highest intellectual honour!

Dr. John's insights are well taken. Christian Jews of the New Testament age continued to practice Judaism with slight changes (obviously!).

They not only attended the Temple, celebrated Jewish feasts and rituals, they were so closely aligned with Judaism that it was really impossible to tell the difference between the two.

This is why St James of Jerusalem was asked by the Pharisees to tell the Christians to stop believing in Jesus.

Apparently, they thought of him as a very observant Jew, not knowing that he was the BIshop of Jerusalem!

I believe that Christ can be Incarnated in many religious traditions, that these traditions already feel the Presence of Christ and want to experience Him directly.

Al-Hallaj, a Sufi saint, was crucified for his view that man is an incarnation of God.

This, for me, is an expression of a God-given desire to seek Christ.

The Syriac Orthodox tradition of India, of which our brother, Catholicos Mor Ephrem is a member, has adopted certain Indian practices while Christianizing them.

Personally, I think it best to start with an historic, Apostolic Orthodox Catholic liturgical tradition or Rite and work other elements into the framework slowly over time.

It has surprised me too how some today feel a bit embarassed by the Cross and how other cultures will relate to it.

In fact, the Cross is one of the most popular symbols in cultures around the world.

It is used in many religions, and I have seen statues of Mesopotamian kings where they are wearing neck crosses like we do today and these statues date three thousand years before Christ!

The presence of the Cross in these cultures is a further indication that Christ is already present among them, they feel His Presence, and try to reach out to Him.

It is our sweet task to simply bring them to a knowledge of Him who is among them already and who warms them with His Love.

Ceremonial umbrellas anyone?

Alex

>>Some more 'liberal' Christians actually do a 'seder' during Lent to help understand the experience of passing from slavery in Egypt. It's a good thing, but perhaps we ought to focus more on truly being brothers and sisters to the Jewish community.<<

>I�ve been told Jews don�t necessarily like Christianized seders. (Having seen via the Web a Russian crucifix hung in a church with women ministers and �gay spirituality�, I can understand their not liking their symbols taken out of context.) The last suggestion here is the best.<

I�ve heard the same thing regarding the dislike of Christians celebrating a Seder. I can understand that point of view, too.

From a Catholic perspective the celebration of the Seder seems a little problematic. We have the fulfillment of the Passover meal in the celebration of the Eucharist. There seems to be little if any reason to have a Seder, which is the precursor of the Sacrament in the first place.

If people are doing a Seder to �get in touch� with our Jewish roots they really have a need to be better catechized. If we�re the fulfillment of Judaism there�s no need to use rites and ceremonies that have been supplanted.

Dear Alex,

This is very true. India boasts the most Syriac Christians anywhere, even more in the liturgical motherland. And we even celebrate the Syrian Liturgy in a more pure form than is currently celebrated in other countries, to my limited knowledge. Yet we have many customs which we've taken from our Indian roots.

Perhaps the best illustration of this is in our Rite of Marriage, which I love. Syrian Churches practice crowning, but in India, the ritual is not done with actual crowns or floral wreaths or whatever. A gold chain is used for bride and bridegroom. This is "wafted" above their heads while the priest intones something in Syriac, which I still haven't been able to figure out. Later, the priest blesses the minn', a gold pendant with a cross on it. It is different from that used for Hindus only by the Cross. It is not on a chain, but on a thread drawn from the woman's wedding sari. This this then tied using a special knot around her neck by the groom (we quite literally tie the knot), and then he places the blessed wedding sari over her head, as a symbol of his protecting her and his care, honour, etc. for her.

Also during processions, we use traditional Hindu ceremonial umbrellas. Traditional Indian musical instruments (tabla, sitar, etc.) are used in some churches for the Liturgy. The Malankar Church developed its own school of liturgical chant (like with Byzantine Churches you have Greek chant, Slavonic, Arabic...all sounding different) apart from the schools of Mardin, Kharput, Tur'abdin, etc. It's more Indian.

I'm sure there are others, but those are what comes to mind, and so that's all for now.

Christian Jews, who still identify with eretz Israel and the Jewish people, can celebrate the Passover seder as a feast of national/ethnic liberation from slavery and servitude. The Passover seder even has strong historical meaning for Jews who are non-religious. Obviously, the calling-to-mind of the historical event was the original intent of the Passover seder.


I do not believe that non-Jewish Christians should celebrate a Christianized seder any more than I believe non-Christians should celebrate a de-Christianized eucharist. In both instances, the celebrations become nothing more than caricatures of the originals.


Sacred memorials should be treated with the greatest respect by all parties.


Vasili

Even if there is no other "point" to it, participating in a Seder can place the events of the Gospel in context for a Christian who has never experienced one before. I think there's value in that. Just as too many Christians are ignorant of the Old Testament, many have no real clue about the customs which rose from it - customs which Jesus observed.

Cheers,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

Thank you for sharing that liturgical beauty with us!

The Ethiopians too have ceremonial umbrellas. What are their liturgical function?

As for the wedding ceremonies, I know you'll have an intimate experience of them one day, to be sure!

Alex

Dear Sharon,

You are right (I have not known you to ever have been wrong, it is a good thing you don't let that go to your head )

Participation in a Passover Seder is something that is done at the parish level in some parishes I know "up here."

As I said, I am going to have one for my Jewish uncle next year.

I agree with our dear friend, Vasili, that the Seder can be a spiritual/cultural celebration of Jewish roots.

In that case, since we are all spiritual Semites, we should all celebrate it.

I see no conflict with the Eucharist, since they celebrate different types of liberation and salvation.

The Ethiopians celebrate a Seder as part of their Holy Week along with circumcision and baptism as well as other practices taken from Judaism.

The more in tune we are with Judaism, the better Christians we become, I say.

As Martin Buber, the Jewish philosopher, said to a Protestant Minister in a heated argument, "We knew (Jesus) in a way you never will."

L'Haim!

Alex

Dr. John,

//the Melkites have a Lenten custom of not eating during daylight hours -- a clear parallel to the Moslem practice of Ramadan - which is different from the usual Byzantine Christian custom.//


Are you sure the Christians borrowed from the Moslems or maybe it is the other way around? In addition, wasn't our form of prostrations borrowed by them too?


Joe

Dear Alex,

Ceremonial umbrellas, to the best of my knowledge, are for royalty. Being related to one of them, I've seen ceremonies involving Indian Maharajahs. Anywhere they go, they are covered by such an umbrella. Same with Patriarchs, Catholicoses (not me ), and other important ecclesiastical and government officials. So in procession they are for the King of Kings. They aren't necessary (and in America I haven't seen them used), but they add a certain something to celebrations.

As far as a wedding down the road, I hope so...

God bless, Alex.

Dear Joe,

Excellent points! (I really like you, you know ).

Evidence is strong that Muslims borrowed from Christians the practice of prayer on beads.

The Muslim dhikr is divided into three groups of 33 beads, an old Orthodox form.

We also know that Mahayana Buddhists borrowed the mitre from the ancient Assyrian Church of the East in China and Tibet, that, at one time, during the T'ang Dynasty had two Archbishops and twenty bishops.

When in Hawaii, I spoke at some length with a Buddhist "bishop" and the topic of our conversation was practices we had in common and their possible origin. My Buddhist friend convinced me that Buddhism needed to borrow much since it had no outward cult or cultic practices at all.

The same is true of the Muslim faith which was and is very iconoclastic. There are those who refuse to pray on beads as a "Christian devotion" and there is a Muslim group that does count their prayers but on their fingers since to pray on beads would be "too Christian."

We almost always assume that Christians borrowed everything from everybody else, but, in fact, there is much that was borrowed from Christianity.

It's always been my understanding that the Melkites, being from Antioch, were originally Syrians who became Byzantine after Chalcedon. Perhaps I'm off target on that one. Nevertheless, I'd say it's probably the case that the Muslims took it all from the Syrians and Melkites. I know the optimal Syrian fast is no food from midnight to sundown. But enough about fasting, it's Easter.

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

Thank you for sharing that!

Having an umbrella handy is good, since one never knows who is going to rain on one's parade .

Perhaps it was also a way to block out the sun?

Good luck with both life and wife!


Alex