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#83689 09/09/99 10:06 PM
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tibubut Offline OP
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Glory Be To Jesus Christ!
Does anyone know or can anyone provide any history on the Italo-Greek Byzantine Catholoc Church? Thank you!

tibubut

#83690 09/10/99 02:30 AM
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Tibubut,

The areas of Calabria and Sicily had a large Greek population from antiquity. In the 8th century, Emperor Leo III took the area from Rome and placed it under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

In the 11th century, the Normans conquered these areas and the returned to the Latin Patriarchate. Unfortunately, however, the Normans discouraged Byzantine usages and the Greek bishops were replaced with Latin ones.

In the 15th century, a large influx of Albanian immigrants hepled to reinforce the Byzantine tradition and in 1595 a Byzantine bishop was appointed. (This immigration is the reason for the interchangeable Italo-Greek/Albanian nomenclature.)

In 1742 Pope Benedict XIV issued the bull Etsi Pastoralis enforcing the recognition of Byzantine equality and producing an Italo-Greek renewal.

Today there are three jurisdictions in Italy: the Eparchy of Lungro for Calabria, the Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi for Sicily, and the Abbey of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata which is headed by a bishop and is independent.

Unfortunately, most Italo-Greek Catholics were absorbed into Italian Roman Catholic parishes in this country. There are two parishes in the U.S. One in New York (sorry don't know the name) in the Roman catholic Archdiocese of New York, and Our Lady of Wisdom in Las Vegas in the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys. This parish is headed by Archimandrite Francis Vivona.

The Italo-Greeks also hold the distinction, along with the Maronites, of being the only Eastern Churches never in Schism with Rome. I hope this was helpful.

Lance Weakland

[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 09-11-1999).]


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#83691 09/10/99 11:11 AM
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Lance,

just a quibble: The Melkite Church says that it also maintained communion with Rome through the centuries (even before 1724 when this communion was made more formal).

Orientale

#83692 09/10/99 01:56 PM
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Just a few elaborations:

The New York City parish is Our Lady of Grace on Staten Island.

I beleive for a period of time, the Bishops in Italy were vicar-generals to the Latin Ordinaries. When they were formally restored as eparchs, they were made independent of any latin metropolitian province. They are directly under the Holy Father, though as Primate of Italy and Western Patriarch; not as Universal Pastor as, for example, Presov is. Interestingly, this makes then Greek Catholics of the Roman Patriarchate.

When they first arrived in New York, for some reason a group of Protestants targeted them for conversion and had some success.

The American community has a very good web site at:
http://members.aol.com/itaalb1/web/arberesh.htm

#83693 09/10/99 04:22 PM
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Some remarks:

1) There are several links to Italo-Greek or Italo-Albanian websites on St. Michael Russian Catholic Church's Webpage:
http://www.praiseofglory.alabanza.com/stmichael.htm/links.htm/


2) Although Archimandrites (Abbots) of the Greek Monastery in Grottaferrata - as exarchs - have episcopal jurisdiction, they are not bishops. They are being elected for 6 years, I believe, and don't receive episcopal ordination. I personally spent a few days in Grottaferrata, when the Archimandrite was hieromonk Paul (Paolo Giannini); the present Archimandrite, hieromonk Mark (Marco Petta) was the librarian in that time.

3) I have doubts whether one can prove the essential difference between the position of Italo-Albanian Church and the rest of "other Autonomous Churches" ("aliae Ecclesiae sui iuris") in CONTEMPORARY Catholic Church really exists. Dear Kurt, could you try to convince me?

Yours in Christ,
Peter


[This message has been edited by Piotr Siwicki (edited 09-10-1999).]

#83694 09/10/99 04:31 PM
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Hello,


Kurt is right about the fact that Italo-Greek church is a Western Rite of the Catholic Church.

Note that there are various rites within the Western Church, of course Roman Rite is one of them. I can't remember what few other rites there are.

From what I understood, the Italio-Greek is like Tridentine Latin Mass except it's spoken in Greek and have just a tiny bit of Byzantine "feel" in it.

It just makes me smile knowing that there's so many different "kinds" of Catholic Churches. It shows me the beauty of the Church. It's like having all different kinds of wildflowers in the field...all different colors, shapes and scents and yet all are equally beautiful.

God bless.
spdundas

#83695 09/10/99 04:42 PM
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Dear Spdundas,
Have you ever seen the Italo-Greek Divine Liturgy's celebration?
Sincerely,
Peter

#83696 09/10/99 06:16 PM
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Peter,

Oh it certainly is a distiction without a difference. I would guess it means they are on the mailing list for letters the Holy Father writes as Roman Patriarch or Italian Primate.

However, let me ask you a question on the issue of Primates, which as you may know we do not have in the New World and seem to be deemphasized since Vatican II. I recall that during the 1970's when the Polish Greek Catholic Church was being restored, the Polish Latin Church insisted that the Greek Catholic Church would be under the Primacy of the Archbishop of Warsaw. Is this still the case and does this have any meaning?

#83697 09/11/99 04:04 AM
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Spdundas,

You are misinterpreting what Kurt was saying, as well as being misinformed about the nature of the Italo-Greek Church.

The Italo-Greek Catholic Church is an Eastern sui iuris church, being noted as such in the Pontifical Annual. It's liturgical languages are Greek, Albanian, Italian, and English(In the U.S.). They use the same Byzantine Rite all Byzantine Catholic Churches use. In fact, I believe the Abbey at Grottaferrata possesses some of the oldest extant Byzantine liturgical texts in the world and are the basis of most Catholic and many Orthodox translations. It has no relation whatsoever to the Tridentine rite.

Kurt's remarks refer to the fact that for a period of time the Italo-Greek eparchies were included in Latin provinces. I do not believe this is the case today. They are now directly under the Pope. This is the case with all Eastern sui iuris churches that are not of the metropolitan status. This begs the question: How sui iuris can a church be if it is directly responsible to the Pontiff?

Other Western Rites still in use are the Ambrosian(Archdiocese of Milan), Mozarabic(Archdiocese of Toledo), Lyonnaise(Archdiocese of Lyons), Braga(Archdiocese of Braga,as well as those peculiar to certain religous orders such as the Carthusian and Dominican, which are simply older forms of the Latin rite they retained.

Also I noticed on another post you mentioned the Tridentine Rite was 1500 years old. You are wrong. The Tridentine Rite did not come into existence until the Council of Trent. Prior to this the Latin Rite existed in many localized forms: Gallican, Celtic, Iberian, to name a few. Due to travel of pilgrims and missionaries these various usages found their way back to Rome and ended up influencing the parent Latin Rite of Rome. By the tenth century, a Franco-Germanic-Roman synthesis was in use at Rome and is the immediate ancestor of the current Roman Rites including the Tridentine and Novus Ordo. In fact the Novus Ordo (when done correctly) is more true to the somber and simple ancient Roman Rite than the Tridentine Rite, which is eternally tied to Baroque opulence and excess. I know that is a hard pill for lovers of the Tridentine Rite to swallow, but it is true. Do the research yourself and don't rely on anti-Vatican II rhetoricians to convince you of the infidelity or invalidity of the Novus Ordo or the other nonsense they push.

Lance Weakland


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#83698 09/12/99 04:47 AM
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Piotr,

No, I haven't been to Holy Mass according to Italio-Greek rite. However, I've seen photographs and they look very similar to the Tridentine rite, in terms of vestments, altar, etc.

Now Lance,

You are correct about various rites before "Tridentine Rite," however, you are mistaken that it really didn't start during the Council of Trent. I even read materials from the Council of Trent and various documents and books. I also read a book by a man who studied Roman Liturgy and is well known author.

The Roman Rite was formed shortly after the Byzantine Rite, probably about 25 or so years after the Byzantine.

Because of poor communication or lack of technology, distances back then, there were various "rites" in various places. But Roman Rite became more of the norm as time goes on. Then it became a disunity amoung priests, bishops and faithful on what's right or wrong on their rites (liturgy) (mostly and [mainly because of] during Protestant "reformation" era), the Council of Trent is like a judge pounding a pavel saying "This is how we are going to celebrate Mass...etc." Therefore, from then on, it created a norm for all Roman Catholics.

Now, let's back up, the Roman Rite Mass have changed a little throughout the time until the Council of Trent which restored the originality of this Rite. Byzantine and other rites have changed throughout the ages, to fit for the era. Although the Byzantine Liturgy is the first of all, the Tridentine, the fact it remained intact and restored by Council of Trent, now become the "oldest" Litury (not the first, don't misunderstand me).

The Roman Rite is composed of some influences of various rites especially 2 of them which is Gallican and Byzantine. It's probably a little more on Byzantine. I'm afraid that the Gallican Rite no longer exists, probably mainly due to the "creation" of Roman Rite. Pope Saint Gregory the Great "finalized" the Roman Rite which is now what we call "Tridentine Rite." You are right that localized rites play a role in it in the first place.

The fact the Liturgy is being called a Tridentine baffles me because it's truly and really is a Roman Rite. How the name Tridentine came about, I do not know.

So, yes, it is over 1,800 years old! If you do not want to accept that or believe it, then too bad for you! I BELIEVE IT. Because I read materials, books, documents and etc. on that. I have a good priest friend in the Vatican, states it's true.

I recommend Micheal Davies, he's internationally well known author on various books on Tridentine Catholicism. Also I recommend the book of Council of Trent. Also try to find books that Michael Davies would recommend on liturgy. (No, Micheal Davies isn't anti-Novo Ordo, okay?) I've read articles by Cardinal Razinger and Cassidy as well. So, we've got some top dogs of the Vatican and documents to back it up.

I'm not one sided on this, I've kept my mind open and I'm going to stick with the facts, not opinion. Good night.

If you want to gripe, disagree or complain about it, go right ahead and do it. I will just go about my business and do what I have to do with my faith. [Linked Image]

spdundas

[This message has been edited by spdundas (edited 09-12-1999).]

#83699 09/12/99 04:12 PM
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Spdundas,

The purpose of my post was to share correct information. I have no compliant or gripe or dislike of the Tridentine Rite. I do have a problem with those who claim the Tridentine Rite is the only valid Roman Liturgy. While I do not accuse you of this, the claim that the Tridentine Rite is 1500 years+ old is common rhetoric of those who disavow the Novus Ordo.

On another note, the Byzantine liturgy is not older than the Roman. No rite can be said to exist proper for the first 150 or so years of the Church. The Roman tradition proper dates from the late 100's early- 200's. While the Greek-Syrian-Jerusalem predeccesor of the Byzantine Rite is from antiquity, the Byzantine Rite proper is the youngest tradition, not truly a distinct liturgy till the founding of Constantinople in 330.

I'll email you an article on the development of the Western Rites taken from an old edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think you will enjoy it. I also recommend www.adoremus.org. [adoremus.org.] They are an excellent organization working for the renewal of the Latin Rite according to the norms of Vatican II and using the Novus Ordo.

To all,

I apologize for digressing from the stated topic. I"ll try to keep it to a minimum.

Lance Weakland


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#83700 09/14/99 05:41 PM
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Dear Kurt,
I'll try to answer your question about Primates of Poland.
1) There is no any "Polish Greek Catholic Church". There is only the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in Poland, an integral part of the Ukrainian Patriarchate (Major Archbishopric) with main center in Lviv, Ukraine.
2) Historically, Poland had two Primates:
a)Primate of Poland - title granted in XV century to Archbishops of Gniezno;
b)Primate of the Kingdom of Poland - title granted in XIX century to Archbishops of Warsaw.
There were also so-called Primates of Gallicia (the first one was Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Metropolitan Michael Levytskyi).
After WWI, in the independent (since 1918) Poland the two Primates continued to exist. The Holy See in 1925 (church circumscription after the Concordance) confirmed their titles and right to wear purple clothes, but at the same time

[This message has been edited by Piotr Siwicki (edited 09-14-1999).]

#83701 09/14/99 05:42 PM
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Dear Spdundas,

I have seen the Divine Liturgy in Monastery of Grottaferrata. It was a normal Byzantine Rite celebration (however, very shorted). They celebrated in Italian (with some prayers - like the Cherubicon - in Greek), but it is not any sign of Latinization in proper sense.
You're quite right the Latinizing influences upon the Italo-Greek Church were very strong indeed. But since some time an Easternizing tendency has been noted among them. How old the photographs you mention are?
Peter

[This message has been edited by Piotr Siwicki (edited 09-14-1999).]

#83702 09/16/99 02:58 AM
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Piotr,

The photographs that I looked at was published in the 1950's.

Ummm. I'm interested in Italio-Greek rite, what it looks like, etc. I am always curious to learn more about various rites.

Anyway, I'll accept what you said about that rite being more Byzantine.

Take care,
spdundas

#83703 09/27/99 05:35 AM
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Dear spdundas,

I am a bi ritual priest of Italian descent. My family was Italo Greek in Italy, when my great grandparents came to the U.S. they found no parish belonging to the Italo Church. Of nessesity, they became Roman and because of poor pastoral care by Roman priests were told they could only be Roman Catholic in this country. They were completely assimulated into the Roman Church.

I have been to Grottoferrata , as well as the Italo Greek parish in Las Vegas. The Liturgy is obviously "Byzantine" in nature and rite. The monks, as well as the people of Our Lady of Wisdom, LV and the two Italo Greek Eparchies in Italy consider themselves Byzantine and worship as such. They have fought hard to preserve the spiritual heritage that was passed on to them. At no time was the Liturgy they offered similar to the Roman Liturgies (pre or post Vatican II). While there were some small "latinizations" these have, rightly, been removed.

[This message has been edited by Batushka (edited 09-27-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Batushka (edited 09-27-1999).]


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