www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Newly Interested in Byzantine Catholicism

I'm not sure where this should go, so I'll just plunge on in.

I am a confessional Lutheran, and grew up Southern Baptist. The Lutheran church body my parish is affiliated with has basically begun to implode over the last few years, and I am no longer wanting to be there. (Our parish has fallen on hard times, too, much of it related to the larger body's problems. I do not think our parish will be here for more than a couple years). I have investigated the EOs (extensive reading in Schmemann, and some of the other folks at St. Vladimir's) but I am not comfortable with some Orthodox church teachings.

Last Sunday, on the recommendation of a friend, I attended the divine liturgy at a Byzantine church, and I was blown away by the beauty (in every sense of the word) of it. These are probably very basic questions, but any help (and patience with my ignorance!) would be appreciated.

1. What differences -- apart from the liturgy, obviously -- are there between RC and BC?

2. What differences are there between EO and BC?

3. Is the Virgin seen (in the BC) as a "co-redeemer" or anything of that nature?

4. What is the BC's teachings on the role and nature of the papacy?

5. Does the BC have married clergy? (I am not a priest, nor do I want to be, just curious).

6. I would appreciate any reading suggestions about the theology, liturgy and practice of the BC. (I have a degree in Bible and religion, and have done a lot of further independent study, and would not object to fairly technical books. The priest at the parish I visited is providing me with several books, but I'm looking to study further, as well).

Thanks to you all.

in Christ,

Jim Huffman

Welcome, Jim.

I can't help you with your questions as I am just a learner here myself, but I just wanted to say "Welcome" and enjoy the forum....

Unity In Christ

Welcome to the forum! I was baptized a Missouri Synod Lutheran while in college, so I can also say welcome to the journey. My path led me to the Melkite Church; may you be so lucky!

I won't try to answer any of your questions, because there are many on this list far more knowledgeable than I (my religion degrees are in Western Christianity, not Eastern), but I do suggest that you spend some time browsing through the threads on the various sub-forums. I know there are a few recent ones with recommended reading lists, for example.

Enjoy!

Actually, I can safely answer #5: yes, the Byzantine rites do ordain married men.

Yes in deed welcome, like my sisters here I am not going to try to answer either. OUR ANSWER GRAPES will be along soon. We really just don't want to spoil their fun by showing them up. :p

I was raised Southern Baptist. I appreciate the faith that my parents gave me. I think especially in todays world, I am better able to witness to my Protestant brothers and sisters because of it. Not just them, but anyone, I count it a blessing because I may not remember book, chapter, and verse in my old age, but the Words are there. The Words really came to life for me after entering the Church.

We have never looked back!
Pani Rose

As a six-month old Catholic (convert from the LCMS as well, interestingly enough!), I'll add my voice to the chorus and say that while I can't help you with Eastern-specific questions (I spent years studying the West and now realize that the East is probably where God's calling me to be and unfortunately I know very little about it at the moment...), I would like to welcome you to the forum!

Oh, dear. I was hoping to sit this one out, until I realized that the responses consist of a string of excuses for not responding to the questions. Being the sort of fool that rushes in where angels fear to tread, I'll give it a try:

1. What differences -- apart from the liturgy, obviously -- are there between RC and BC?

Response: Alas, this is a lengthy discussion, since the Greek-Catholics are characterized by our own theology, liturgy, discipline and spirituality. Can you be more specific?

2. What differences are there between EO and BC?

Response: The wonderful world of the Byzantines (Orthodox and/or Greek-Catholic) includes a good deal of diversity, some of which you are bound to run into. But the principle distinction between the Eastern Orthodox and the Greek-Catholics is that we are in full communion with Rome.

3. Is the Virgin seen (in the BC) as a "co-redeemer" or anything of that nature?

Response: I've never run across that particular title or expression among Greek-Catholics. But if you thought that our forms of devotion to the Holy Mother of God might be more subdued or restricted than thosed used by the Roman Catholics, prepare yourself for a shock!

4. What is the BC's teachings on the role and nature of the papacy?

Response: This is a topic on which many books have been written, and one can find much diversity of opinion. For openers I would suggest an article by Bishop Basil of Stamford, published in Logos about 10 years ago.

5. Does the BC have married clergy? (I am not a priest, nor do I want to be, just curious).

Response: yes, we have married clergy. This is often a source of tension with the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

6. I would appreciate any reading suggestions about the theology, liturgy and practice of the BC. (I have a degree in Bible and religion, and have done a lot of further independent study, and would not object to fairly technical books. The priest at the parish I visited is providing me with several books, but I'm looking to study further, as well).

Response: if you kick me once in a while, I'll provide some recommended reading, but at the immediate moment I'm away from my bookshelves. BE WARNED: Greek-Catholicism is an expensive religion, and you can easily spend a fortune on books and periodicals! To add to the confusion, we will often recommend books from Orthodox authors and publishing houses.

But c'mon in; the water's fine!

Incognitus

Welcome to the forum Jim,

And congratulations to you and you begin your journey into learning more about the Eastern Church. I pray that with time you will grow in your faith and find the place where God desires you to be.

After reading your post, I was wondering if you could tell me what were those teachings of the Orthodox faith that you were uncomfortable with. I ask out of curiosities sake and if you would prefer to contact me via private message instead of posting your reply on the forum, that would be fine with me.

May God bless and keep you.

In Christ,
Aaron

Jim,

Welcome to the forum. I saw your post last night, but didn't have a chance to reply; glad to see that our resident mystery man , incognitus, answered some of your questions.

I think Aaron's question about the Orthodox teachings with which you were uncomfortable is an important one, so that folks can help you understand the differences (if any) between Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy on those issues. And, be forewarned, there may not be any differences.

As to a list of recommended reading, I'll toss a few out for starters. Some are Catholic, some Orthodox. If you haven't guessed yet by reading here, there are many similarities and a few differences separating our two communions and, given the nature of this place, the person answering your query at any moment could be from any of several Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, a Latin, or a Protestant.

We're a very integrated group here and the diversity is really one of the most appealing features to the place - together with our wit, the recipe exchange forum, lessons in cutting patterns for and sewing riassa, and the secret handshake (oops, wasn't supposed to mention that yet, first you have to get the tattoo - meet us at incognitus' house at midnight on the night of the full moon - and bring a good bottle of wine, or a nice liquer will do ).

Many years,

Neil, who is a bit out of character this morning :p - too much Halloween candy

Oops, almost forgot the reading list ; there are more, but these are wonderful introductions to Eastern spirituality:

We Are All Schismatics - Archbishop Elias Zoghby

Byzantine Daily Worship - Archbishop Joseph Raya

The Face of God - Archbishop Joseph Raya

Orthodox Spirituality - A Monk of the Eastern Church (Father Lev Gillet)

The Orthodox Way - Bishop Kallistos Ware

The Orthodox Church - Bishop Kallistos Ware

The Way of a Pilgrim: And the Pilgrim Continues His Way - Helen Bacovcin (translator)

Jim,

Welcome! I'm a convert from Methodism to Roman Catholicism, but I love the East and have prayed/read/studied much about it. However, I'm in no way an expert! But that has never stopped me before from answering questions I'm interested in.

My answers are coming from the "outside" of Eastern Christianity, but that might also be helpful for you (or maybe not).

Yest, it is quite beautiful, isn't it? I'm actually one of those strange people who love the "new Mass" of the Roman Church, but I'm also quite blown away by the beauty of the Eastern Liturgy. Surely it is "heaven on earth"!


There are actually some quite major differences. The Catholic Church is not the monolith some make it out to be; quite a diversity of theology and practice exists within her. If I had to mention a couple of major differences, I would say that we differ in our spirituality (a great deal), our view of the consequences of original sin and purgatory (Eastern's don't use the term "purgatory"), and our view of how the papacy should be exersized. It is my uneducated opinion that most of these differences (if not all) are complimentary, not contradictory. As I see it, we are looking at two sides of the same coin.

As someone else said, I think the main significant difference is that that BCC is in union with the Bishop of Rome and the EO are not. They are actually in close agreement in how they think the papacy should be practiced, but the BC's stay in union even though they disagree with how the papacy is sometimes been practiced over the years.

Furthermore, some (most?) contingents of the EO believe the papacy has fallen into heresy as well, whereas I don't think most BC's believe that (although I'm sure some probably do).

"Co-redeemer" is not language you will find in the BC Church. But as someone else said, if you are uncomfortable with deep devotion to the Blessed Theotokos, be prepared for shock in the BC Church!

Note: "co-redeemer" is not dogma in the RC Church, and many, many RC's (including myself) are uncomfortable with that term applied to Mary. That being said, according to Paul, we are all "co-redeemers" - working with Christ for our salvation (see Col. 1). That of course does not make us, or Mary, "equal" to Christ. So that language, while cause for confusion, is not heretical when properly understood.

From what I have seen and read, the BC's believe he is "first among equals", and will even grant that he is the final decision-maker in times of crisis. However, they believe that in the vast majority of situations that the Patriarches of the particular Churches are to have full authority over their Churches, and that most of the Pope's authority should be exersized over the Western Church that he is Patriarch of. Most BC's I have encountered would probably say that how the papacy has been practiced over the past few centuries has been too centralized and authoritarian. Something some RC's would agree with.

Yes. Note that in the U.S., however, they are usually not allowed (although there are often workarounds to this).

Neil gave some good suggestions. One thing I would recommend is that you read a number of books on prayer by Eastern Christians. I have found that the attitude towards prayer in the East is much different than it is toward the West, and that prayer is the centerpiece of Eastern Christian life. If I had to summarize the difference between East and West on this, I would say that the West sees prayer has a means to an end (to obtain something, to get to heaven, etc.), whereas the East sees prayer as the end in itself (i.e. standing before God).

Two books that helped me in understanding Eastern Prayer:

"The Way of the Pilgrim" (translation by Bacovcin is the best)
"The Art of Prayer" by Igumen Chariton

Again, all my answers are from a a somewhat-informed "outsider" perspective. I hope I have been helpful in some way and God bless you!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Jim, I'll also confess that when I saw the question, and knowing the answers are so huge, requiring volumes that my little brain and effort would hopelessly mangle, I tried to also excuse myself out of here.

Anyway, thanks for your question which if nothing else is a chance for us to come to some self-revelation of who we are and where we are going as Greek Catholics.

Jim, of course the questions you ask are insightful, and would take pages and books and volumes to really answer adequately.

There are far more differences than just liturgy between the RCs and the BCs, or Greek Catholics as we often call ourselves. We are actually all particular churches, each with our own received and developed traditions, practices, spirituality, theological outlook, etc. but all in communion with Rome. We even have our own canon law, bishops, hierarchy, etc.

Amongst the ECs you will find a great diversity from the various traditions, from the Byzantine to the Ethiopian to various Indian churches, Armenian, and many others. Our own Irish Melkite has developed a very good outline of all the Catholic Eastern Churches in a recent thread called "Maronite", https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001233;p=3

Pope John Paul II speaks of the Western and Eastern Churches as being "two lungs" of the same body, the Church. While functioning as one organ, they are distinct but both needed for the health of the body. You might want to consider reading his Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen.

We have no formal movement regarding "Co-Redemptrix" if that is what you are referring to and would resist any further "theological proclamations" in this regard. As Eastern Christians we rely primarily on the Liturgy to guide our devotion to God, the Theotokos and the saints, being faithful to the maxim "lex credendi, lex orandi" or what we believe we live and breathe through our rich liturgical tradition.

Regarding the papacy, we recognize the need for the primacy of the Petrine Ministry and we are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Regarding your married clergy question, most of the BCs have married clergy, some Eparchies such as the Romanians having a much higher percentage of married clergy than some others, such as the Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA which only has a couple and has not yet fully returned to the traditional practice of ordaining married men.

A nice guide is from the U.S. Catholic Bishop's Conference, "Eastern Catholics in the USA". As far as theological, we are supposed to be Orthodox in spirituality, theology and liturgy and Catholic in love and unity. We also read Schmemann, Ware and Meyendorff in addition to the Church Fathers.

A very good book written by a married Russian Catholic deacon (who is now a priest) is "Eastern Christianity: The Byzantine Tradition" available from Eastern Christian Publications which does a very good job in providing an historical, theological and spiritual snapshot of the Christian East including the union of the various Greek Catholics with Rome.

Another excellent primer on the theology of the Constantinopolitan tradition is Archbishop Joseph Raya's "Face of God". There is also a three-book adult catechism series called "Light for Life" available at several places, including Icon and Book Service, the Catechetical Office of the Eparchy of St. Josaphat in Parma, and probably some others as well.

Where to start with books...anything by Melkite Archbishop Joseph Raya, or Schmemann; the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Way by Ware; Meyendorff's Byzantine Theology; anything by Lev Gillet (A Monk of the Eastern Church); the Philokalia, (Four volume Philokalia as well as the four volume "Little Russian Philokalia"), Olivier Clement's "Origins of Christian Mysticism", and so many others.

You can't just read about this rich tradition to really experience it. You should avail yourself of the opportunity to attend Divine Liturgies, Vespers, and other services and enter into the prayer life of the community as well.

Neil has already recommended the excellent prayerbook by Archbishop Raya, "Byzantine Daily Worship". The Jordanville Prayer Book or Old Rite Prayerbook available from St. John of Kronstadt Press, www.sjkp.org, [sjkp.org,] are also excellent as is the very economical "Hours of Prayer" which is a great introduction to the Byzantine Divine Praises (Divine Office) and used to be available from St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.

And don't hesitate to post your thoughts and questions here. Once again I see I have rambled on far too long. May the Holy Spirit guide your discernment.

Jim,

Welcome from another Jim who is from Mount Airy, North Carolina originally, more or less. I figure any guy named Jim must be a wonderful person, don't you?

There have been many wonderful books recommended to you already, but I would like to add "The Prologue of Ohrid", by St. Nikolai Velimirovic. One edition is published in 2 volumes, and is published by the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Western America. It is available for about $110 (gasp!) hardbound from Light-N-Life Publishing of Minneapolis. They have a website, but no toll free number.

What's great about the Prologue is that it supplies about 4 pages per calendar day of hagiographical information on mainly eastern saints of the church, as well as hymns, reflections, and homilies. It's sort of a daily dose of eastern spiritual vitamins, short enough to keep up with daily. (St. Nikolai was a 20th century saint who died in Dachau during World War II.)

If you enter into eastern prayer life, you will also likely want to establish a prayer corner in your home that traditionally faces east, where you can light a candle and pray, eventually with icons of the saints there. The prayer life is also tied to frequent fasting, with varying requirements depending on the customs and traditions of the jurisdiction you follow.

Godspeed on your journey, and I hope to hear about your progress.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Since the first round of questions have been ably addressed by the "answer grapes" I just wanted to extend a warm welcome Jim Huffman and a heartfelt hello to everyone else!

[secret message to agent Melkite: "Klaatu Barada Nikto" ::handshake:: ]

Nil Carius Christo,
Michael, that sinner

Dear Jim Huffman,

Welcome!

I've been blessed to assist a number of Lutherans interested in becoming Catholic or Orthodox.

If you like, I would be pleased to correspond with you privately.

The information you have received here is excellent.

Alex

Here is an online address for the Prolouge of Ochrid that Jim mentioned.
http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/pr_intro.htm

Another good learning tool is the search engine for the forum. There have been so many totally awesome discussions here. Some you loose yourself in laughter which is a good thing. However, there are many that you just loose yourself in the amazement of the knowledge and understanding that God has granted to the diveristy of his people.

You know the saying it takes a village to raise a child. Well it takes a bunch of Church loving people to raise a good forum. I believe the Triune God has accomplished that here thanks to all our administrators and brothers and sisters in Christ. Most of all not to forget the wonderful priests who share their time and energy posting with us. Thanks be to God!

Pani Rose

Just a brief note to thank all who have offered suggestions and welcomes. I will respond at greater length tomorrow, as the evening is late ...

Jim Huffman