www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Orthodox is "too Orthodox?"

Dear Friends,

This is an issue that was raised in a previous thread that I think is worth considering.

Bob and OrthodoxEast raised this problem in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles.

Some years back, we had a "super Orthodox" priest and by this I mean he was very scrupulous about observing the last detail of liturgical usage.

He named his Eastern Catholic Church, "St Seraphim of Sarov."

Eastern Catholic priests wondered how he could do that (it escaped them that St Seraphim is recognized as a saint by Rome).

But to them St Seraphim connoted "Russian" and with that, "Anti-Roman Orthodoxy."

Orthodox priests sometimes expressed the view that such a practice was a form of "poaching" of Orthodox saints . . .

So if he wasn't being called a "Russophile" and "ultra Orthodox," he was giving offense to the Orthodox.

Converts are usually the "culprits" in this regard .

A friend of mine, who is going to be ordained a priest, was formerly considered "annoying" by cradle Orthodox for being so enthusiastic about Orthodoxy .

Long services, flowing cassocks with wide sleeves, long pectoral chains and the like can be equally annoying to both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox when they are faced with "die-hard" priests of this kind .

Is it a question of pastoral sensitivity to the feelings of parishioners who can't take long services, are upset about three-Bar Crosses and beards etc?

Can reform-minded and "restorative" clergy not take any initiative in bringing back our traditions?

Alex

Dear Alex,

My quick, off the cuff, answer to the question posed in the thread's title is.... Look in the mirror! :p


I would say yes to both questions quoted above.

The reform-minded and "restorative" clergy must realize and take into account that bringing back "our traditions" means the destruction of the traditions of most of the older crowd in the pews (yes I said pews, as this is one of the traditions that they have now).

We must find a way to do this with out alienating them.


David

Dear David,

Actually, I don't have a beard (the missus says it's too ticklish!) and the only time I wear long, flowing robes is on romantic weekend get-aways!

Good points, though . . .

Alex

We have similar problems in Orthodoxy. The "reforms" suggested by people like Fr. Schmemann are slow in coming (some have come, like frequent communion and general confession, but others haven't really taken hold). For us, the issue often isn't restoration of the Orthodox Tradition (although admittedly this can still be an issue in some parishes and some jurisdictions), but rather the re-vivification of that tradition along the lines suggested by the liturgical work of Fr. Schmemann. Things are happening, but they are happening slowly (and that's probably fine, given the context).

Dear Brendan,

I understand that the Finnish Orthodox introduced a few rites such as the Kiss of Peace etc. One of our Churches here adopted these as well.

May local Churches introduce such? Does it set a precedent for "good" liturgical reform?

Alex

Dear Alex et al:

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seems like you're asking the "how far do we go" question with regard to restoration of our traditions. Excellent point and question, as always.

On one hand, we all agree that our Byzantine tradition is in need of restoration. On the other hand, there are certain practices which are not "by the Byzantine book" upon which the faithful have come to depend and, therefore, would be very difficult to do away with.

The best example I can think of is the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrys. on weekdays during the Great Fast. Most of us know that these days are, as a general rule, non-liturgical days "by the book." On the other hand, parishioners have come to depend (yes, depend!) upon the ability to have their "intentions" (espectially for the departed) heard in a Liturgy.

It's hard - very hard for a particular pastor to say "no," we take a break from intentions for a full seven weeks and who cares if the anniversary of your loved one's death occurred during this time.

Rock and a hard place, to be sure.

Yours,

kl

Dear Alex,

Reform is a two-edged sword. While it's relative easy to bring reform to praxis it's much harder to bring reform to the people. One major issue that the Orthodox face which we have to a lesser extent is the notion of orthopraxis. If Orthodoxy means both right praising and right practice then reform suggests that something wasn't right -- and that introduces a sense of cognitive dissonance. Therefore, those who desire the right form will always be bugging those who settle for less. At the same time, those who are, for want of a better term, fundamentalists will never be happy because they will color whatever is done with their own ideas -- which may or may not conform to what is orthodox (note the lower-case "o").

I think it's also important to remember that the Church is semper reformanda -- always reforming. What was will be again and what we dispose of today we will cherish tomorrow. That's just the nature of an organization that is run by flawed human beings.

Edward, deacon and sinner

I think one way of doing away with pews is purchasing really awkward and uncomfortable ones, and buying a few comfortable chairs to put around the walls for the elderly people. I think that will do the trick.
Lauro

I think it's always good for Eastern Catholics to restore the Orthodox traditions, it would give them more credibility in the eyes of the Orthodox and also in the eyes of the Pope and the Roman Church as a sing of the plurality of the Catholic Church.

However we shouldn't be scared with some external signs and local traditions such as the kiss of peace which are quite harmless to the "spirit" of Orthodoxy.

There are things that are much more important. I would care more about restoring Orthodox monasticism within Eastern Catholicism which is almost lost, and also the Eastern synodal tradition. :rolleyes:

--------------------------------


How Orthodox is too Orthodox? When rocks in a hard head keep a Pastor from caring for his hurting sheep.

There should be a provision to have a service, not necessarily the Chrysostom Liturgy, for the deceased during Great Lent

I remember a story of a Ukrainian Catholic Priest in New Jersey who refused a funeral for a man who had killed himself. The widow found an RC priest to do a funeral mass, but she never went back to the UCC and most of her children were lost to any Church forever.

Parastas, Panachida, Canons and Akathists exist for the departed in the Byzantine tradition that could be used on any week day during the Great Fast.

A kolyvo (kutia) can also be prepared for any commemoration of faithful departed who have fallen asleep in the Lord. If it is a request for intention of the living, there are several canons for supplication for the sick, those in trials, etc. in which they can be mentioned by name.

The question framing this thread really doesn't have a consistent and definitive answer, since the measuring stick for this varies from parish to parish and even person to person.

This can cover everything from the length and type of services themselves to the language used in the services (use of hierarchical languages such as Greek and Slavonic, more hieratic language such as "Thees and Thous", etc.), enforced dress codes at church, only men allowed to read, etc. etc.

Hi,

I think that we all need to be careful not to "worship" rites or the externals of the Church. But rather worship God alone.

But of course, we humans, need rituals, expressions, etc. I'm all for the total restoration of Orthodoxy in the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

But like I said, we have to be careful not to worship the rites as the only way of salvation. "We have to have a beard, we must have pony tail, we must have such and such and such." These kind of things are unimportant.

So...why not talk about how Christian is the Orthodox? Rather than how Orthodox is too Orthodox?

Being a Christian means to live up to His Word...to love others, etc. rather than living up to un-neccessary rules in the Churches..or worrying about how Orthodox should we be? How Catholic should we be? More rather we must ask ourselves...how Christians should we be?

God bless.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

We may also do away with pews by sneeking in some termites, but before you do this make sure to see if your iconostasis isn't made of wood.
If I get any further brilliant ideas I'll post them in the future.
Lauro

Alex --

I think that such matters are proper for a local church to decide, but care should be taken to do it in a way that is esentially in concert with the wider church.

Another example is the ritual of hand washing that the OCA Metropolitan introduced in the last few years -- that's "new" in the sense that it hasn't been seen in a while, but is nevertheless a restoration rather than a renovation.

Brendan

Dear Friends,

Thank you for sharing your insights!

Let me throw something else out.

Last night,I was watching EWTN's program that features a Jewish Convert to Catholicism, Brother Bob something or other who talks about the Jewish connections to Christianity.

(He wears a Yarmulke throughout and has a prayer shawl lying on a table etc.).

At one point, Brother Bob was discussing the Eucharist.

He then took a turn and said, "The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY Church that offers us the Holly Eucharist EVERY DAY of the year. No one else does that, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, not anyone."

My wife heard me shout out all the way to the kitchen . . .

In addition to being very unecumenical, this comment is ultimately directed at Eastern Catholics who, ideally, would have the same tradition with respect to the Eucharist as the Orthodox.

Your comments?

Alex