www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Low Masses?

Jennifer,
Asking questions is never a problem. Your might realize, however, that there are few, if any, in a position to give a common-practice answer; the best we can do is to tell your our experience (as I have already done).

And some inevitably will also tell you the impressions and opinions that they have formed. As people, they are, as you point out, entitled to their opinions - charitable or uncharitable, truth-grounded or truth-challenged. Beyond this right, however, it is clear that some of these options are good and some are not. And while a Chiristian perspective puts great obligations on how you form opinions about God's creation, understanding this preference does not actually require a Christian perspective. A scholarly one - that recognizes the limits of one's knowledge, reason, and insight - would suffice.

But you can say when an opinion is not rationally drawn from accurate facts. And somehow, I suspect that you do.

And I further suggest, FWIW, that answering questions about a church is arguably better left to those with greater knowledge of it. If someone asked you and your friends about RC practice - in particular, a question that really didn't lie close to the interface of RC Protestant histories - it would seem odd to me that your Protestant friends would jump in to answer (even in error), rather than respecting the available RC expertise the subject.

I attend Liturgy at the Ukranian Catholic Cathedral in Philadelphia often now. Often, a second liturgy on Sunday, or the ordinary daily liturgy, is only receited, no incense. So they call it Low Liturgy.

I remember folks from my former Ruthenian Parish say something lie they attended "Low Mass",and I asked them what they meant. In the old days, I guess, many parishes had to have 2 Liturgies, say one at 8 am, and the sung liturgy at 10am. In order for their fellow Roman Catholics to understand, they used the term "Mass" to indicate "Liturgy". (Most RC's I meet look at me weird when I say the word "Liturgy" as if I were from Mars. Many RC's are using the word Liturgy now, so its not unknown among them.)

Neil-
The prayerbook did not list a publisher, but it does have the Imprimatur of Bishop Basil
Takach on August 20 1940 and reads "Copyright , 1941, by the United Societies of Greek Catholic
Religion of the U.S.A."
Deacon James Sofalvi

The Rusyn fraternal "United Societies" (which merged with the GCU) had a print shop and printed many prayer books for the Pittsburgh Exarchate.

The concept of "Low Liturgies" existed through the early 1970's. I have a rubrics sheet that was printed by SS. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Seminary Press. It was probably printed in 1966-1969. At the top, it has a heading saying
The Celebration Of The Divine Liturgy then lists
34 parts of the Divine Liturgy that differ in the
"High Liturgy" vs. the "Low Liturgy". They are too many to type out, but the major feature is the omitting of things like use of incense, no Tropar or Kondak, Epistle read at the Altar by an altar server(while the congregation sings the Trisagion) , omitting many litanies,etc. These all bring back bad memories I have of our liturgies of the early 1970's. Because of these irregular rubrics, it was very easy to have a liturgy that lasted only 25-30 minutes at best. Let us just label concepts as "Low Liturgy" as an aberration of the past!

Ung-Certez

Jennifer- I wholeheartedly agree with you!

Who are some of the experts in the Ruthenian Church qualified to answer these questions?
Are they here? What qualifies one as an expert and another as not capable of answering correctly?
We all pull from our own experience on this board and any help we may offer should be welcomed.

I understand why you've moved on to another Church. In my many years in one particular church I have seen many come and go for the same reasons you've stated. To a lesser extent the same ethnic superiority attidude is carried over to this board. While the board can get away with being an exclusive club, the same behavior in the Church has proved disastrous to all of us.

Face it, we are not the most welcoming or trusting group. We question motives and ethnicity first, seeking the love of God secondly. Why? IMHO it is because that is how our priorities fall into line. As well- there has always been an attitude of 'who has been here the longest knows the most' Perhaps that is part of human nature.

In any event, if we all know so much about our church why are we still having an identity crisis after all these years, and why are our numbers in the basement as far as membership?

My rarely offered two cents,
Sam

DJS, my friend,

More often than not, I find myself either in agreement with you or, at the very least, sympathetic to the position you're taking and on more than one occasion, I have verbally supported you when others were taking potshots. However, in this instance, I think it's you that needs to step back, take a deep breath, and relax.

Brian posted that he had
To which you replied that you had
Just in case anyone was in doubt about whether they saw a hint of hostility (Brian obviously wasn't), they could read your next post for verification:

or the one which followed, that I won't bother to quote in full, but which is a model of pomposity, although I can't, for the life of me, figure out from where it's coming. Without mentioning Brian by name, it certainly intimates another scolding directed at him and Jennifer gets lectured for apparently not pre-selecting the appropriate person to answer her original query - after earlier having been subjected to the rather "in your face" challenge

I don't know what your issue is with Brian, perhaps that he is OCA, rather than Ruthenian? Even so, I see nothing in his original post that suggested anything so far from truth that it merited either the response you made to him or your subsequent lecture (to Jennifer) on being sure that one only accepts answers from those with first-hand experience as credentials. We, not all, but many of us, regularly propound on matters of which we have little, if any, first-hand knowledge (e.g., I've never belonged to an Old Catholic Church, an ecclesia vagante, or the Russian Greek-Catholic Church, but I'm very confident in discussing any of those or innumerable other topics here).

In Brian's frustrated reply to you, he erred in connecting Bishop Nicholas to a booklet with a 1940 press date - but, he wasn't at all off-base, neither in what he originally posted, nor in thinking that the same kind of practices continued into the Elko era.

Bottom line - in my opinion, you owe both of them an apology. If you disagree, you can take your next potshot at me, also not a Ruthenian, for also weighing-in on Jennifer's question. Sorry, my brother, but this time you were guilty of doing to others what has many times been done to you.

******************

Jennifer,

As Brian suggested (and despite the fact that DJS has only experienced anything that vaguely resembled a "Low Mass" as a one-time "fluke"), such were not uncommon in Eastern Catholic parishes in the US (which, in that timeframe, would have been limited to the various Byzantine Rite Churches and the Maronites) in the era that the booklet was published (and for a couple decades both before and after that date). Both Brian and Mike touched on some of the factors.

These were, in fact, among the latinizations that you hear folks speak about and they included both those foisted on us, as well as those we elected to embrace in our rush to assimilation. The extent to which these things occurred or were allowed varied from place to place and, sometimes, between parishes of different Churches in the same place.

Some of the more obvious were:

• [1]Reciting vs singing Liturgies;
  [2]Truncating or eliminating prayers, especially Psalms;
  [3]Use of "Mass" vs "Divine Liturgy" as liturgical terminology;
  [4]Serving Divine Liturgy vs Presanctified Liturgy on aliturgical days;
  [5]Serving the Divine Liturgy with Funeral and Marriage Services;
  [6]Erection of Latin-style altars;
  [7]Installation of Latin-style altar accoutrements, (e.g.,tabernacles);
  [8]Ringing bells at the Words of Institution;
  [9]Elimination of hot water from Consecration;
  [10]De-emphasis or silencing of the Epiclesis;
  [11]Elimination of Vespers, Matins, other Hours;
  [12]Installing altar railings vs iconostases;
  [13]Performing genuflections vs bows or prostrations;
  [14]Adopting kneeling vs standing as the principal liturgical posture;
  [15]Having a solely unmarried priesthood;
  [16]Wearing Latin presbyteral vesture;
  [17]Vesting altar servers in cassock and surplice;
  [18]Introducing use of Confessionals;
  [19]Administering First Communion vs infant Communion;
  [20]Administering Confirmation vs infant Chrismation;
  [21]Discontinuance of Antidoran distribution;
  [22]Celebrating Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament;
  [23]Observing Latin Feasts and Holydays;
  [24]Praying the Stations of the Cross;
  [25]Conducting May Processions;
  [26]Recitation of Rosary and other Latin prayers;
  [27]Use of organs or other musical instruments;
  [28]Introduction of Western music;
  [29]Singing of Latin hymns, including Gregorian Chant;
  [30]Use of statues vs icons;
  [31]Use of Latin-style crucifixes;
  [32]Reduction or elimination of use of incense

The most flagrant and abusive instances of latinization were those in which the Latin Mass was actually served rather than the Divine Liturgy.

I would offer one correction to Brian's post; it was less frequent that iconostases were removed than they were never installed.

In 1970, the then-newly appointed Exarch for Melkites in the US, Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory, spoke eloquently of what he saw as the two greatest dangers to Eastern Catholics, assimilation and its polar opposite, a ghetto mentality:

The Courage To Be Ourselves [melkite.org]

For some additional examples of the kind of thing you saw in the booklet, see the following photos

St. George Byzantine Melkite Catholic Church, Milwaukee

[Linked Image]

St. Nicholas the Wonderworker Byzantine Croatian Catholic Church, Cleveland

[Linked Image]

So, Jennifer, yes, despite DJS encountering such only once, and then as a fluke, these things did happen. They were not our best days and it is to the credit of the reforms that came out of Vatican II, many of them driven by the Melkite Patriarch Maximos IV Saigh, of blessed memory, that they are becoming a thing of the past.

I have to say that I find it disturbing that Mike reports that the Cathedral of the Ukrainian Metropolitan Arch-eparchy still serves what it terms a "Low Liturgy", even if the liberties taken to confect such are not so extreme as was once the case.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks, Neil! I certainly did not mean any offense to Byzantine Catholics or the Byzantine Catholic Church . I was in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church for 15 years before I became Orthodox and I have nothing but respect and love for the laypeople and clergy of that CHurch who nurtured me in Eastern Christianity.

U-C,

Yes, from Deacon James' reply and the two references I found on-line, there were apparently at least three bi-lingual versions (Hungarian, Rusyn, and Slovak) of the booklet in question, as well as possibly an English-only version, as Jennifer didn't describe her copy as bi-lingual.

The United Societies of the Greek Catholic Religion of USA was headquartered in McKeesport and, in 1955, changed its name to United Societies of USA. In 2000, it merged with the Greek Catholic Union of the USA which, until 1944, was titled the Greek Catholic Union of Russian Brotherhoods.

Anyone who needs info on the myriad mergers of the various ethnic and religious-oriented fraternal societies, for such things as historical or genealogical research, might want to see:

Name & Status Changes of Fraternal Benefit Societies [nfcanet.org]

Many years,

Neil

Time out.

Jennifer, from a traditional RC background, in the first post of the thread: 1) asked a question about "Low Mass" with an explicit comparison to Latin practice; presented a list observations from a certain prayer book, with no questions asked whatsoever. In particular no question of Latinization was posed.

In my response, I first attempted to disabuse her of any idea that "low Mass" in the BCC has or had the same meaning as "low Mass" in the Latin. I did mention one Latin-sense low Mass - a fluke- that I witnessed, in over well-over two thousand liturgies. I also stipulated a different sense of of "high/low" liturgy that was used in the BCC, as was elaborated by UC. I had also considered that I should extend the coverage of the term to include recited liturgies, but Mike C posted on this point before I got to it. I also probed for whatever question/comment was behind the posting of the list.

Neil, you must have read too hastily if you feel that I denied as a fluke "anything that vaguely resembled a Low-Mass". That is simply untrue.
I see that you go on to discuss Latinizations more fully. No questions was asked on this subject even in response to a prompt; I would have been more than happy to reply.

The basic problem that I have had in the earlier discussions on this topic is the lack of agreement on meaning of the term; meanings ranging from adaptation in Western regions to coerced impositions by Western adversaries are used interchangably. I have never denied the existence of practices that derive from the West :rolleyes: , but have certainly expressed an insouciance about them. More importantly, I have noted that any claim that such practices indicate that we are "needy", "victims" of a "step-child" syndrome, or view ourselves as "second-class", etc., is totally alien to my expereince. Which it is. Jennifer, had already gone off in the step-child direction in another thread. I don't know if that was her intent again, which is why I asked before commenting. But she never elaborated on the meaning of her inclusion of the list.

Sam, Apparently as IM indicated, my post was too pompous (moi? ), but you have not written anything here that differs from what I trying to say. It is difficult to get a sense of common-practice here. Who has set foot in more than a handful of, say, BC parishes? The best we can do is share our individual experiences that may help to answer whatever questions are being asked. Which, btw is what I did.

At the same time, owing to the profound limitations on our knowledge - limited, anecdotal information - it is incumbent upon each of us to be wary of making generalizations. And certainly there should be real solicitude about passing along hollow generalizations as though they are substantive. This has nothing to do with ethnicity or insider status; I would insist, and in fact have insisted on the same respect for fair and informed judgment by everyone.

I admit to having a sensitivity to comments about a church - not just mine - from former members. There is, to me, an unseemliness about it - like a man who leaves his wife for another woman later being very causal in talking indiscretely about his ex. Especially in conversations with her very family.

The moving-on, in and of itself, is a different matter. It is often understandable, for many reasons; and I have been supportive on of it on several occasions. So it would be nice to put baseless speculation along these lines to rest, IM.

I do apologize to Brian, who may have made a blunder, but as I pointed out does not epitomize this behavior.

Let's see. I remember experiencing "Low Mass" in Ruthenian, Ukrainian and Melkite churches in the late nineteen-fifties and early sixties. Here's the Ruthenian order as I remember it:

Priest: Blessed is the Kingdom . . .
People: Only-Begotten Son
People: Trisagion
Priest: Gospel (that's right; there was no audible Epistle reading).
People: Cherubicon
People: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Trinity one in essence and undivided.
People: Holy, Holy, Holy
Priest: Institution Narrative
People: It is truly meet to call thee blessed . .
from there on, my memory gets hazy.

Now for the Ukrainians: this is much easier to describe: they simply recited the Liturgy instead of chanting it. I have no idea what this was supposed to do for anyone.

Melkites: Much of this was done in silence. I think I remember hearing the Epistle and the Gospel. I certainly remember them using the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene Creed.

By the way, I've never offered the Divine liturgy in any such fashion, nor do I intend to!

As to those prayers during the Divine Liturgy, there are many variations of them - a friend collects them. He reports to me that he has found prayers to be said during almost every part of the Liturgy, but is still hoping to find a "Prayer During the Sermon".

Incognitus

LOLOLOL!!!

Now if ever that is found I would really like a copy so I can use when one of our Priests is giving the Homily - he parades up and down and treats it like the Fr ..... Show/dramatic production .

Drives me bananas he does - sorry and all that - but he has been 'infected' with some very unEnglish ideas during 3 years in the US

I do get some odd looks when I close my eyes and lose myself in prayer then with Chotki in hands

Anhelyna

I used the term "low Mass" because that's the term used in the prayer book. I made the observations because I thought it was interesting. I also noted how the prayer book was given to a soldier by his mother before he shipped off to WWII. It's from a different time and that makes it interesting.

As for my opinions about what I saw in the prayer book...I also have some opinions about a similar latin rite prayer book I have from the same period. They're both charming little books and I like knowing that people had them before me.

Sam, that was well said. It seems often there are those who would rather just let parishes die out "nash" rather than evangelize and embrace. Besides, with the exception of one actually born as a cradle Greek Catholic, what possibly could anyone else coming from the Latins know about their tradition? Certainly not the likes of Robert Taft, Cyril Korolevsky, Metropolitan Sheptytsky etc. etc.

Jennifer, yes, the recited or "low" liturgies were very common in that time period. They still exist in both the UGCC and BCC, especially at daily Divine Liturgies. And in deference to djs' experience, I have been to plenty of recited liturgies in both the BCC and UGCC since the 70s. Is it an aberration? You bet.

But please don't take one bad experience and project it over everyone and everything within that particular tradition. I have seen plenty of ethnic Orthodox parishes with the "nash" attitude as well. I am sorry you have had a negative experience and I pray that the Holy Spirit give you discernment and peace with your spiritual journey.

All of us sin, and in the process it clouds our mission to evangelize all with the riches of our respective Byzantine traditions.