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#85633 08/19/02 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Administrator:

Bob, you might consider that sometimes you appear as if you want to be misunderstood! Does the fact that the OCA does not contain complete information about other Orthodox parishes mean that the OCA does not consider them to be Orthodox? biggrin

I don't get the question, maybe I just need more caffeine can you re-word it for me, please?

Do you mean an OCA website? (You can make a parallel of the OCA and other Orthodox Churches in America, with the Byzantine Catholic Church = Ruthenian, is that it?)

as usual confused

[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

#85634 08/20/02 04:21 PM
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Bob and Friends,

Getting back to the topic...

Last night I saw an early English printing of the Divine Liturgy from 1956 (complete with a photo of Archbishop Fulton Sheen in Byzantine vestments), it contained "Having beheld..." although none of the other prayers Bob mentioned. It would be interesting to find out if at least this prayer was common usage for Ruthenians that was considered a Russification and removed.

In Christ,
Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#85635 08/21/02 01:52 AM
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Dear Lance, Just as a sidebar: I saw Bishop Sheen in Byz. garb when he visited the Youngstown area--must have been late 50's. I was a young boy, and besides the visual image that I've retained, I remember my father telling me that the bishop chided those in the crowd who began to leave (we were outdoors) when it began to rain. Vito

#85636 08/21/02 03:04 AM
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To take this thought even further off-topic. A handsome photo-biography of Archbishop Fulton has recently been published, which contains several remarkable photos of His Grace Archbishop Fulton, with Archbishop Nicholas (Elko). Archbishop Fulton is dressed in Byzantine vestments, and looks the part except for the absence of a beard (but that is another thread too).

#85637 08/21/02 03:12 AM
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Why did Archbishop Fulton wear byzantine vestments, but the Pope wears Latin ones when celebrating our liturgy??

In Christ,

anastasios

#85638 08/21/02 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by anastasios:
Why did Archbishop Fulton wear byzantine vestments, but the Pope wears Latin ones when celebrating our liturgy??

If I'm not mistaken, it's because nowadays a bishop can be of only one liturgical rite, but before, he could be biritual like other clerics (priests and deacons). So Abp. Sheen would've worn Byzantine vestments at Byzantine Liturgies because he was biritual (I recall hearing somewhere that he was), but now that bishops cannot be biritual, they must wear the vestments of their rite only, even if for whatever reason they celebrate in another rite (and I'm not even sure bishops are allowed to celebrate in another liturgical rite than their own, unless they're the Pope).

#85639 08/21/02 09:43 PM
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There is a photograph (I wish I had it) of good Pope Blessed John (XXIII) fully vested as a Byzantine Bishop, celebrating and consecrating a Bishop.

I remember it vividly, but if anyone knows where it can be found, I would be grateful.

Elias

#85640 08/21/02 11:02 PM
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Reverend Hieromonk, Bless!

Could this have been when Pope John was Papal nuncio to Bulgaria?
I know that Good Pope John changed many minds in Orthodoxy about the Roman Church by his true gift of listening to other points of view. There are too few like him today!!

#85641 08/22/02 12:38 AM
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It is God who blesses you!

It may very well have been when he was in Bulgaria. It is many years since I saw this photo in a frame hanging on a wall. It must be published somewhere.

Blessed Pope John looked young in the photo.

Elias

#85642 08/22/02 04:11 PM
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I too remember the picture of Pope John XXIII in the Byzantine vestments, while consecrating a bishop. If it is the same picture that I remember, he wore some semblance of the eastern vesture, combined with other papal elements, including the tiara instead of the mitre and the pallium for the omophorion (which I suppose is not so historically off).

I do not remember where I saw the picture. It was when I was very young, but I may well still have the book in which the photo appeared. If I come across it, I will scan it and share it here, but it may take some time to find, if at all.

Archbishop Sheen, on the other hand, did wear the full Byzantine episcopal vestments, combined with other elements that were popular among our hierarchy during the days of Bishop Elko, i.e.: the gloves and ring, and the lace alb as the sticharion. I believe that Archbishop Sheen more or less used his friend, Bishop Nicholas T. Elko, as an example of how to properly don the Byzantine attire.

It was well known that Archbishop Sheen loved the ceremonies of the Greek Catholic Church. Besides several appearances at the Uniontown Otpust, he often celebrated the Divine Liturgy around the NYC area, including one service in Brooklyn at which the choir from my home parish, under the direction of our "Professor" sang the responses. I was too young for these 1950s (and maybe early 60s) liturgies, but would love to see more pictures of those historic events. It's interesting, to say the least.

I do not know who would have been responsible for the publication of liturgy booklet of 1956 that Lance mentions. Could they have been prepared to go along with Archbishop Sheen's occasional Byzantine services?

I have one from the same year, 1956, published by the "SS. Cyril & Methodius Institute" in Pittsburgh, the predecessor of our "Byzantine Seminary Press" but this book, while very complete in the liturgical texts (small litanies, all verses of the antiphons, etc), does not include the "Having beheld the resurrection . . . "

I do know that in those days, the "Russian Center" (later called the Pope John XXIII Center) at Fordham University played a key ecumenical role in the New York area. Its successor is now associated with the Eastern Christian Studies program at the University of Scanton. These Jesuits did much needed research and publication using the Russian liturgical recension. I do not know exactly when the "Center" was started but it did exist - pre-1956. If they had a role in the publication of the book mentioned by Lance, it could be a reason that the "Having beheld the resurrection of Christ . . . " is given in the post-communion texts. I don't know. It's only a possible theory of mine.

I have located a Divine Liturgy published by the Jesuit "Russian Center" in 1955, which is a second printing of a version of the same, published around 1952. It includes an endorsement from Cardinal Tisserant, then prefect of the Oriental Congregation. The liturgy is in the complete Russian recension, and includes the post-communion paschal hymns, to be recited by the priest: "Having beheld . . .", Shine, shine . . . ", and O Christ, great and holy Passover . . ." This particular book also stipulates that the priest (following the Russian style), bless the congregation with his hand at the words, "Save your people, O God . . ." instead of with the sacred gifts, as is the custom in the Ruthenian, Greek and Antiochian traditions.

I've never seen any Ruthenian books that give the paschal post-communion hymns that are generally included in the Russian recension. If my memory serves me correctly, these paschal texts are recited privately (although sometimes semi-audibly) by the priest as he gathers the veils and vessels together (and places the commemorative particles into the chalice), after the communion of the faithful and before taking the holy gifts to the table of preparation. The only pseudo-paschal verse that is common to all liturgical recensions is that of the prokimenon of the Ascension, "Be exalted, O God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth" which the priest recites while incensing the sacred gifts.

Just some thoughts. The historical period of the popular (Arch)bishop Fulton J. Sheen is very interesting and significant to those who remember or were told early on, about those liturgical events.

Fr. Joe

#85643 08/22/02 04:18 PM
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Bless me a sinner, Fr. Joseph!

Yes, Venerable Fulton Sheen was an amazing man in so many ways.

I remember an interview he had when he affirmed that he never missed his daily Hour of Adoration.

He then added as a postscript to a journalists' compliments to him for all his TV work, "But I don't do it - He does it!"

And he once said, "There were two types of people that came to visit our Lord at Bethlehem - shepherds and Wise Men, the very simple and the very intelligent - never the man of one book."

Another favourite is: "Under the Cross of our Lord stood three people representing three types of people who forever stand there, those involved with: Motherhood, Virginity and Penitence."

We may all add our voice to that of Pope John Paul II who personally told him while he was alive: "You have spoken well of the Lord Jesus."

Alex

#85644 08/22/02 06:49 PM
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I'm not sure, but the picture may have come from one of Donald Atwater's (sp.?) books on the Eastern church. It was a two volume set, one dealing with the Eastern Catholic Churches and the other with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Many probably remember it or have it in their libraries. I have the set somewhere, I think at the parish office, and will check to see if this is where they had the photo of Pope John XXIII.

Alex: thanks for your beautiful memoirs of the venerable Archbishop Sheen. He certainly left a lasting impression on the church and so many of the faithful. Still to this day, many speak of his lectures and programs. What an accomplishment, especially before the dawn of the internet and other mass media communication. God bless you, Alex.

Fr. Joe

#85645 08/22/02 07:16 PM
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Thank you for already blessing me a sinner, Reverend Father!

I have to add one more . . .

Venerable Fulton Sheen related the story of the conversion of an atheist.

He met him during an all-night vigil in Paris and the man struck up a conversation with the Bishop.

Sheen asked him why he was so angry about religion and the young man replied, "It is because . . . I've never yet met a good man."

Sheen then added, "So I thanked him for the compliment . . ."

After their conversation, the man stayed with the Bishop all night, until morning (ah, the good old days of REAL Vigils).

By morning, the man was a believer.

Again, as Sheen would have said, "I didn't do it, God did it!"

Alex

#85646 08/22/02 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Fr. Joe:

II've never seen any Ruthenian books that give the paschal post-communion hymns that are generally included in the Russian recension. If my memory serves me correctly, these paschal texts are recited privately (although sometimes semi-audibly) by the priest as he gathers the veils and vessels together (and places the commemorative particles into the chalice), after the communion of the faithful and before taking the holy gifts to the table of preparation. The only pseudo-paschal verse that is common to all liturgical recensions is that of the prokimenon of the Ascension, "Be exalted, O God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth" which the priest recites while incensing the sacred gifts.

Just an observation Fr. Joe. I do not know what you are considering as "Ruthenian books." Nor d I mean to determine that, I think that is too difficult and not all will agree ultimately. As I observed in a previous post on this thread the most recent combination pew book/liturgikon/hymnal that the ACROD published does contain some of the texts in question.

Now I don't think many people think that the ACROD is subject to "Russification" in fact that jurisdiction is known for the opposite. Just some thoughts and observations.

Bob

#85647 08/22/02 07:37 PM
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Dear Bob,

How did you get to be so knowledgeable on these matters?

You are truly remarkable!

Alex

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