www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Questions from a possible convert

I'm Eastern Orthodox and this morning attended Divine Liturgy at a Russian Catholic Parish (Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church) for the first time. I am wanting to convert to Catholicism, and God willing, I will be received into the Russian Catholic Church. I have some questions concerning the Assumption/Dormition though.

I found this quote on wiki:
"The Feast of the Assumption is celebrated on August 15. The Eastern Orthodox Feast celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos with a 14-day fast prior to the Feast of the Assumption. The Dormition should not be confused with the Assumption: Eastern Orthodox, as well as many Catholics, believe that Mary died, and that she was later resurrected from the dead, before being assumed into Heaven. For Roman Catholics, the Assumption is an infallible teaching. The teaching that Mary died and was resurrected prior to her Assumption is taught in the same Apostolic Constitution that infallibly proclaims her Assumption, Munificentissimus Deus. But this teaching on Mary's death (Dormition) and resurrection was not proclaimed infallibly. Eastern (Roman) Catholics also observe the Dormition in addition to the Assumption."

I realize wiki is not the greatest source of reliable Christian information, but what is the general Byzantine Catholic belief about the Dormition and/or Assumption? Did the Theotokos die first? I know most Eastern Icons of the Dormition show the Theotokos lying down and her soul being held in the arms of Jesus, does that imply she died or is she sleeping? Thanks in advance.

CIX!

Dear Patrick Shane,

As none has responded to your query yet, I shall presume to speak for all of us!

The Byzantine Catholic belief is identical with the Orthodox belief, and that belief is clearly articulated in the service texts in the Menaion for 15th August - the Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God. The texts speak eloquently and at length - to add to them would be superfluous.

A good english traslation of the texts may be found here [anastasis.org.uk] .

in Domino,

Edward

By promulgating the Bull Munificentissimus Deus, 1 November, 1950, Pope Pius XII declared infallibly that the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary was a dogma of the Catholic Faith. Likewise, the Second Vatican Council taught in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium that "the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things (n. 59)."

The above came off New Advent. The same article goes on to say that in different places the dates were all over place. Some kept more than one feast in the year. They commemorated the death or going to sleep and then 40 days later celebrated her going to heaven as described above. The important thing being that the Latins do it their way and the various Eastern Churches in comunion and not in communion with the Pope of Rome do it their own way. All are of course equally valued.

I will go out on a limb here onto very shakey ground. The word cemetary is from the Late Latin coemētērium, from Greek koimētērion, from koimān, to put to sleep. So you cans see that the term even in Latin was the going to sleep of someone when they died. So going to sleep or died I suppose it is ones choice of terminology. We say sleep, they say died, however both parties agree Mary the Theotokos is in heaven body and soul.

I hope that this helps with your question.

ICXC
NIKA

Thank you to both of you for the replies. They both helped. I was told by a dear Maronite Catholic that she did not die and that the Eastern Icons of The Dormition reflect the belief in the East that Mary was taken up while she was sleeping and that only recently have people such as His Grace Bishop KALLISTOS Ware suggested that she died.
However, I have heard that at least some of the Fathers taught that she died and was then Assumed. This is what I have always been taught as an Orthodox and that the Icons of The Dormition do in fact show the Theotokos passed away with Christ holding her infant soul. I also recall a story in Eastern Tradition of all the Apostles being gathered at Mary's tomb, but when Thomas arrived late and they went in to see her body it was gone.
I am willing to follow the truth wherever it leads, and I know some Catholics believe she never died, but in my experience it has always been the Byzantine belief that she died first and was then Assumed. I am just wondering if I can still hold that belief as a Russian Catholic.
How does the teaching that she died reconcile with The Immaculate Conception? That is my biggest question. Because I always understood death to be one of the main consequences of Original Sin. All help is appreciated. Please pray for me.

Dormition = Falling Asleep = Reposed.

Quote from here [theologic.com] .

Andrew

Patrick Shane,
The belief in the Assumption of Mary Body and Soul into heaven does not exclude the fact that she died. In the Latin Church I believe that the question was left open, some felt that since she was preserved from all sin, then she did not experience the result of Sin that being death.
However most if not all Latins would hold that Mary did in effect die and was later resurrected and Assumed into Heaven, where she now reigns with her Son Jesus Christ.
Stephanos I

Dear Patrick,

The liturgical services of the East do indeed say that the Most Holy Theotokos died before being taken, body and soul, to heaven by her Son and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The Eastern Church understands Original Sin in terms of death.

However, the East glorifies the Mother of God as "All Holy" and "Ever Immaculate" and so the experience of death was greatly mitigated in the Mother of God - for whom death was so light that it was a "falling asleep" or "Dormition."

She also felt no pain when she gave birth to Christ, even though she felt exceeding pain as she stood under His Cross!

For the East, "Immaculate Conception" at best means that she was conceived in holiness and perfection outside of the moral impact of Original Sin that we are all under. The East does not see how it is possible for her to have been outside the physical impact of Original Sin, namely, death, but that as the Temple of the All-Holy Trinity, that experience was so mitigated as to be a gentle sleep.

If you really want to be an EC, the Russian Catholic Church is the way to go.

Stay away from the Ukrainian Catholics - I understand many of them are Latinized . . .

Alex

Tsk Alex

Do I come in that Category :p

Hello,

I see a Rosary in Jerusalem on EWTN for RC(sometimes I channel surf across it)...

and during the Mystery of Assumption of Mary, they mentioned that she died...and showed a video of Mary's tomb where she died before she was assumed into Heaven.

So, obviously, in the RC, that position is open...

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

By the way, PatrickShane,

Why would you want to switch to Catholicism? What's wrong with Orthodoxy?

There shouldn't be anything wrong with Orthodoxy...I'd encourage you to stay...and grow and deepen your Orthodox faith...

Someday...Orthodox and Catholic will live happily ever after as one family.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Hi,

I just wanted to add that the dogmatic proclamation is "compatible" with both the Eastern position that the Theotokos actually died or "fell asleep in the Lord" (which is what I believe, even as a Latin) and also with the other position widely held in the West that the Theotokos did not actually die, but had an immediate transit from this world to the next one.

Shalom,
Memo

I dont think PatrickShane implied that there was anything wrong with being Orthodox. Perhaps he has just come to the conclusion that it is important to be in communion with the Apostolic See of Rome.
Just my thought, I could be wrong.
Stephanos I

I have no doubt the other Eastern Catholics are genuinely Eastern in their faith. Personally I have no problem with the Latin Rite and praxis. I enjoy it and think it has much spiritual richness to offer.
I am becoming Catholic, God willing, to receive the fullness of the Faith and with that fullness comes many Western spiritual tools I can use to the glory of God and to my benefit. But I am Eastern at heart and intend to remain that way. The West isn't bad, but the Latin rite is just not the way I usually approach my practice.

PS
Welcome PatrickShane.
With brotherly affection and admiration.
Stephanos I

But there are some things wrong with the "Orthodox faith". At the risk of starting a debate. There is no cohesive teaching on what "Papal Primacy" really means. There is no cohesive teaching on contraception. The "Orthodox Church" is a Church that is extremely divided. The Copts can't Commune in an OCA Church etc etc. There is no cohesive teaching on Purgatory or The Immaculate Conception, even though the roots of these Dogmas are clearly present in the Eastern Fathers teachings.
I am on my way to Catholicism because I believe His Holiness Benedict XVI The Pope of Rome is the Primate and Supreme Pontiff of the Church. There is a cohesiveness and fullness of spirituality that I am not getting in the "Orthodox Church".
Russian Catholicism is a fulfillment of my Orthodoxy. I can remain fully Orthodox and become Catholic. I can remain completely Eastern in my faith and expression and have access to the great spiritual tools and teachings of the West. So that's the short story of why I'm becoming Catholic.