www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Questions from a possible convert

Dear Patrick,

May God continue to bless you!

The Orthodox do not need me to represent their side - but for the sake of our ongoing discussions on these matters on the forum, I just wanted to reflect on a few matters (and I am NOT dissuading you from becoming EC in ANY way - so we understand each other).

Coptic and other Miaphysite Orthodox cannot commune in the Latin Church (outside of the accepted norms for this) as they are also not in communion with the RC Church.

The Miaphysite family of Churches have yet to form one Church with Byzantine Orthodoxy - and that is just the way it is for now.

Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception could hardly be said to have their theological roots in the thinking of the Eastern Fathers.

The Eastern Church and we EC'ers have been praying for the dead and glorifying the Most Holy Theotokos as All Holy from her Conception - we just don't see why those doctrines needed to be defined and the way they are defined are purely Latin scholastic theological constructs that say nothing to the Eastern Churches.

The East has its own eschatology and Mariology proper to it.

I would suggest you are becoming Catholic because of reasons other than theological . . . many of us EC's are in communion with Rome, but yet would agree with the Orthodox positions you eschew (in the nicest possible way! ).

And as a member of the UGCC, I want Rome to get involved jurisdictionally in the affairs of my church . . . as little as possible . . .

Cheers!

As a future Russian Catholic, do you have to assume a "Russian-sounding" name?

Alex

Patrick,

Welcome to the Holy Catholic Church!

We will be praying for you.

Pax vobis!

Logos Teen

Many years to a fellow Catholic of the Church of Rus'. You have a little treasure there in San Francisco with Deacon Kyrill and the folks. O Theotokos "Unexpected Joy" intercede for your servant.

Ever read any Soloviev, by the way?
FDD

Dear Patrick:

Saint Gregory Palamas on the Dormition as stated in the book by Met. Hierotheos:

"...the Theotokos went to heaven to the 'fitting kingdom' and took her place at the right hand of the king of all, dressed 'in an embroidered garment interwoven with gold'. The 'garment ...interwoven with gold' means 'that transluscent body' and 'embroidered' indicates being adorned with 'all kinds of virtues'. Thus she ascended to Heaven with her body, and she is the only one who is in the heavenly place with her body with her Son.

Expaining this point he says that the tomb and death could not hold her life-giving and life-receiving body, which is a beloved dwelling place of the heaven of heavens.

If a soul which has received divine Grace ascends to heaven after departing from the body, much more was this the case with the body of the Panagia, sho received within her the pre-eternal only-begotten Son of God, who is the everlasting source of Grace, and not only did she receive Him within her, but she also was the producer."

Zenovia

Welcome, Patrick!
I wouldn't agree that "all Ukrainians" are Latinized, as someone stated earlier--our little Ukrainian Catholic mission may be an anomoly, but we are here! What I love about our eastern Catholic faith is that we do embrace the fullness of the Faith. We possess, as it were, all that belongs to the Church--east and west. In our little parish we are indeed fully eastern, but we certainly appreciate that there are riches in the west as well.
The only Russian Catholic church I am aware of is in SF...we used to go there years ago...
Blessings
Alice

Patrick:

Death v. falling asleep is not an important detail to me. The important thing - The Big Picture - is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God!!!

She is also your Mother and mine!!! John 19: 26-27.

Let the philosophers and the theologians clean up the details.

It is my understanding that Metropolitan Basil of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh has jurisdiction of three Byzantine Catholic Churches with Western Patron Saints: Our Lady of Fatima, St. Louis, and St. Therese of Lisieux. I attend Divine Liturgy at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Church.

Welcome to the club. Its tough to do much better than to have Our Lady of Fatima as your patron Saint.

JP

I don't know, I'm pretty happy with my parish's patron saint: Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

Her beautiful icon hangs right next to the altar, beside a statue of her with a Rosary in her hands.

Logos Teen

Point well taken!

Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Our Lady of Fatima, how could you go wrong?

I could add Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Knock, etc., because I was raised as an Irish Catholic.

However, don't ask me what my mother thinks about these Byzantine Catholic issues unless you are ready to hear a lecture that all you need is St. Patrick, St. Bridget, and Pope John XXIII.

I love learning about the Eastern Traditions about Our Lady.

My point: Stick with Our Lady and you will do fine. She is the Theotokos, the Mother of God!!!

JP

I understand that the Oriental Orthodox Churches are not in communion with the Catholic Church. That wasn't my point. My point was that the Orthodox Church is completely divided and jurisdictions within the Church are in disagreement as to who is truly Orthodox. Copts cannot Commune in an OCA Church, but they surely can Commune in any Antiochene Church. What does that say about the cohesiveness of the Orthodox Church? Ecclesiology truly reflects theology.
I respectfully disagree with you and say that the roots of the Dogmas of Purgatory and The Immaculate Conception have their roots in the East. If they didn't, why as you say, would such similar teachings be found in the Orthodox Church? Whether the Dogmas "mean anything" or not to some Eastern Catholics, doesn't mean they don't preserve a beautiful truth and it doesn't mean you and I can't continue to express such truths in an Eastern fasion.
What Orthodox positions do I eschew? I agree that the Pope of Rome doesn't need be involved with the Churches of the East more than absolutely necessary, but he is the Primate and Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church. The first among equals, dare I say.
Please forgive me and pray for me.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Many years to you as well brother! Yes, I just met Father Deacon Kyrill this last Sunday, he is quite a blessing and has a true love for God. I look forward to making it back to Our Lady of Fatima when God wills it. I haven't read any Soloviev. I have never even heard of him. Care to direct me in the right way? Thanks.

There is one in L.A. as well. Blessings.

Really? It�s pretty clear to me who is in communion with who.

Wrong on the second count.

What does it say about the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States that there are numerous Eparchies with parallel hierarchies? How cohesive is Eastern Catholicism in the United States? There is a significant, albeit slow moving drive to unify Orthodoxy in America in to one administrative structure under a single ruling metropolitan. Does such a movement exist in Eastern Catholicism in the United States? Would Rome allow it, and would it cede control to an Eastern Catholic Church outside of the canonical boundaries of the mother churches in the Middle East and Europe? What does this ecclesiological situation say about Catholic theology?

A �supreme pontiff� sure doesn�t sound like a first among equals to me.

Andrew

Not always. I think the point being made is since each "jurisdiction" has its own list of who is or is not in communion that week, it can be rather unclear, as those things do change, even if the faith doesn't change as expressed liturgically (i.e. Moscow excommunicating Constantinople over Estonia, etc.). In that case in the eyes of Moscow Constantinople was not Orthodox, in the eyes of Constantinople Moscow was Orthodox.

Numerous other examples could be given - in the eyes of ROCOR some SCOBA jurisdictions are not considered Orthodox.
FDD

I don't think there was an excommunication regarding Estonia, and to my knowledge there has been no break in communion between Constantinople and Moscow. There certainly have been some tensions though. However, the rather minor squabble over Estonia also doesn't seem to me to fit this description.

but that's just me.

Andrew

A very good, clear and concise response PatrickShane.
Stephanos I