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Here is an interesting view by a jewish rabbi. Even though I am Roman Catholic, my spirit leads me to believe that God's mercy rarely would allow a disobediant child to be forever punished. I suspect there may be a few that would reject God even in his presence and perhaps be forever separated. Read the following:

Hell? No, we won't go.

Interfaith groups notwithstanding, major religions of the world have a big problem with each other; it�s called Hell. They don�t bring it up at the meetings on religious tolerance, but the official Catholic policy is that Protestants, Muslims, and Jews go to hell. Protestants say that Catholics, Muslims and Jews go to hell. And Muslims say that Christians and Jews go to hell. Although on an individual level we can ignore this, theologically it is a wall that separates major world religions.

Many liberal minded religionists are uncomfortable with this perspective, but that remains today the official dogma. This presents a difficulty in religions embracing one another as valid roads to the same destination. How can I walk arm in arm with someone who believes I am destined to pain and suffering for eternity, whether I am a decent moral person or not?

A man and woman who were dating came to me for counseling. She was a Jew for Jesus, he was a traditional Jew. I asked her how she could consider marrying someone she thinks will burn in everlasting damnation. She laughed nervously, �Well, I haven�t exactly worked that out yet.�

From the tradition of Kabbalah a different viewpoint emerges starting with the fact that there doesn�t exist the concept of everlasting damnation and torture. There is no hell. The Almighty�s justice is not served by punishing someone forever. Justice means the punishment fits the crime. Since we are finite and our sins are finite, then our punishment or atonement must be finite. To take it one step further, the very connection with wrongdoing is an act of connecting to that which is temporary, physical, devoid of Godliness. On the other hand, when you do a mitzvah, you become one with God who is eternal. Evil and bad by definition do not exist forever; therefore the atonement period for wrongdoing is a fixed period of time.

This temporary place of atonement is called Gehinnom, and lasts for eleven or twelve months after someone passes away. Which is, parenthetically, the reason why Kaddish is said for that time period. The recitation of Kaddish atones for the soul, which mitigates the suffering of Gehinnom. Also, the suffering is not fire and brimstone, but rather something more directly related to the transgressions. There are those who suggest the nature of this punishment is actually the embarrassment of standing before God, aware of your transgressions. What could be more painful than that? This embarrassment wipes away the barrier you created between you and God when you committed the transgression, and therefore is a great benefit. The atonement process is not so much a punishment as it is a spiritual dry-cleaning to rid you of any blemishes you may have on your soul before you enter the next phase, oneness with God.

Phase Two is known as the World of Souls and consists of all the souls worthy of a connection with God. This experience is still somewhat lacking until the end of days when the entire creation is corrected and rectified. Until then righteous souls exist in a minor temporary oneness with God. Even though it�s not full oneness with God, this phase is still awesomely pleasurable.

Getting back to judgment, Gehinnom is not the same for everyone who goes there. Each individual experiences the atonement for his or her own specific transgressions. It�s a uniquely personal event. Heaven, known as the World to Come, is also a uniquely personal experience. You only have the closeness to God that you�ve created. Every mitzvah that you do is a piece of Godliness that�s incorporated into your soul. In the next world you will realize what that closeness means for eternity. Each person will only experience the bond they have created. Like a football game, there are the fifty-yard-line seats, and different levels all the way up to the cheap nosebleed seats. If you�ve really blown it, you can end up in the hotdog stand forever. Therefore according to the Jews, it�s not necessary for you to be Jewish to end up in Heaven; it all depends on your relationship with God.

It�s important to note that the World to Come and Gehinnom are not mentioned specifically in the five books of Moses. It is spoken about only in the books of the Prophets, the Writings, and the Talmud. If it�s such a crucial part of Jewish philosophy why is it absent form the Torah? Because we are not meant to dwell on the reward and punishment that awaits us in the next world. You can be a righteous person your whole life, do every single commandment, stop hunger, bring about world peace, save the whales and the ozone and cure all disease, but if you did it all for your reward in the next world you�ve lived a completely selfish life, which is the opposite of being one with God. The Almighty needs nothing. He�s infinity, and therefore every one of His acts is purely altruistic. Heaven is missing from the Torah to emphasize the necessity to do what�s right because it�s right, and not for the reward, or to avoid punishment.

The Talmud not only gives us many guidelines regarding the next world, it also relates many incidents of people who passed away making contact with the living and telling of conversations, debates, and other bits of information from the world beyond.

Similarly, many people, including myself, throughout time claim to have seen a dead relative in a dream. Even with all these �eye witness� accounts of the world beyond, we still do not have a clear picture of what its like there, nor can we, until we shuffle off this �mortal coil.�

One thing�s for sure, returning our soul to its source is the ultimate pleasure a being can experience. Death, then, is not a tragedy from a kabbalistic view. It is a realization of our purpose, its coming home. The problem with death is that it cuts off any further spiritual growth. We delay death as long as possible, but once it happens, the soul is delighted to be reunited with God. For this reason some kabbalists have asked their students to celebrate at their demise. The anniversary of the death of the greatest known kabbalist, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, is celebrated in the spring by people all over the world.

Life is precious. We wish for long life, to do mitzvos, grow spiritually, and gain the greatest closeness we can to the Almighty in this world. But when the time comes for us to leave this world, there�s no need to fear the next step. It�s merely a step down the path to the ultimate pleasure of being one with God.


Kabbalistically speaking,

Rabbi Max Weiman

Dear MKE:

Many roads lead to God, and it would be grossly arrogant of anyone to think that his way was the only way.

Putting on my body armor,

hal

I don't have the book with me right now (I'm at work) so I can't reference the page number but in "Mountain of Silence - A Search for Orthodox Spirituality" by Kyriacos C. Markides, he relates a story of an Eastern saint who helped free a deceased fellow monk from hell by doing many prayers and penance. It was in a vision that he saw the deceased monk freed from hell.

I do not know if that is truly possible but, then again, I do firmly believe that with God all things are possible.

Just another reason why we should always pray for our departed loved ones.

Dear MKE,

Catholicism does not teach that Protestants, Muslims, and Jews go to hell. That is absolutely false. Catholic teaching specifies that salvation is gained only through the Church. That does not mean that only Church members are saved, nor does it guarantee that members of the Catholic Church will be saved.

Please refer to a recent thread concerning this matter. Perhaps someone here can remind me of what the subject was titled. May God Bless You!

Praying in Christ for Protestants, Jews, and Muslims,

Tammy

If human freedom is real, hell must be a possibility. Hell is the soul refusing God's offer of eternal life. It may be that to the wicked the presence of God itself would be torment. What do you propose, that even the most evil people should be granted eternal happiness? What if the only thing that brought them happiness was hurting others? Kabbalah occultism aside, how can this be reconciled with Catholic and Orthodox Apostolic teaching? Of course, from your other posts I gather that this is the least of your worries...

I am not sure about other Orthodox, but in 1999, the Coptic Church through a decision by our Holy Synod removed all prayers for the departed souls in Hades (Hell) from the Divine Liturgy. Whereas apokatastasis may have been an acceptable theologoumenon in the East in the past, it is now no longer as far as the Coptic Church is concerned.

I think this actually promotes union between the Coptic Orthodox and the Catholic Church since (correct me if I'm wrong) it is dogma in the Catholic Church that those in Hell do not have a second chance.

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk,
You are right "hell" is a final choice of rejection of the love and goodness of God.
And MKE by the way even Catholics go to hell.

The notion that the way to God and Salvation are wide is simply a false and non Christian understanding of faith.
"What Sacred Scriptures are you reading?"
My translation says this: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way easy, that leads to destruction, and those who find it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14

Stephanos I
Unworthy monk and arch sinner

PS Hal, was Jesus grossly arrogant?
"I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

A survey done a couple of years ago 5% of rabbis didn't even believe in God.

Brothers and Sisters:

I find this statement (or question) a bit puzzling.
___________________
Rabbi Weiman:

I believe that where we differ here is on a fundamental point that may be irreconciliable. We believe that Jesus Christ is God-in-the-Flesh. We also believe what He tells us in the New Testament. He speaks of a Final Judgment, a lake of fire, and all those fearsome things that present problems for so many. He also tells us that "eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man the things God has prepared for those who love Him."

The Catholic Church has been rather reticent about who may or may not be anywhere, leaving judgments to God--indeed, where they should be.

It seems to me that we do share some common ground, however, in the area of afterlife in relation to this present one. It seems to me, from my reading of both Testaments, that we both have been called by a God Who demands a full and unreserved commitment. Is it not the case that so many times in the books we count in the Old Testament (perhaps "Common" would be a better word) the Chosen People strayed from this total commitment and God allowed others to subjugate them? Then when they would turn again to Him, He would again extend His help and blessing.

It seems to me that the Divine Justice comes in at this point to balance the Divine Mercy. We choose our eternity by our growth here. If we grow with God, we will continue that growth in eternity. If we do not, we can't expect to be forced to grow with Him there. How would it be to be forced to live eternally with Someone we didn't know (in the Biblical sense of intimate relationship) now and possibly rejected now. That, in itself, would be Hell.

It seems to me that the theologians who have tried to waffle in this area are those who want to make a partial commitment so that one can "have it all": do one's own thing now and still get the rewards of being single-heartedly commited to the Most High. That seems to fly in the face of the commitment demanded. We both have a commandment to "love the Lord God with our whole heart, mind, soul, and strength." Can't see any wiggle room there unless I need my eyes of faith checked.

And as for speculations about the moral man who does not have the status you have of being among the Chosen People or my being adopted into that family as a Christian, again we get into the area of playing god--I have enough faith in the mercy of my Father to let Him to His own judgments. I even have enough faith to thank Him for being Who He is and having more wisdom, understanding, and mercy than I do. God didn't ask me to be someone else. He put me where I am, gave me a choice in that place, and stands ready to form a covenant relationship or not, as I choose. I can't speculate where He may be working with someone else inside the man where he lives and where we cannot see. God constrains us with His commandments where He puts us; He is not constrained to work within those parameters to save only those inside them.

Incidently, if you want Hell, just elect me God some day when I'm having a bad day.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob,

You wrote.

The Catholic Church has been rather reticent about who may or may not be anywhere, leaving judgments to God--indeed, where they should be.

Well put! And so should we all realize that as God is Just - God is also Merciful. A balance between the two even as the balance is personified in Christ Jesus, Himself. So too a balance for the Church and so should each of us be balanced in justice and mercy as well. You provide food for prayerful thought gently without fireworks even if this is the eve of the 4th. I appreciate it and the little bit at the end about "...if you want Hell, just elect me God someday when I am having a bad day." Can't quite top that!


Mary Jo>looking up. :rolleyes:

Mary Jo:

I've had enough of fireworks through an earlier phase of my life when I was still immersed in the approach of the Counter Reformation: lots of anger, lots of arguing, lots of wounds all around.

The balance I have received from my reading of Orthodox theology and spiritual praxis has given me a chance to breathe with both lungs of the Church and balance myself out so that I can approach others in a more charitable fashion. For all that, I thank God.

I've come to the place where I see the Heaven and Hell experience and reality as one that begins now. If I do not feel Heaven now, I probably won't appreciate it later. It seems to me that it begins now as a covenant relationship with God through membership in the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Covenant relationship flows out of our Baptism: God espouses us. The Divine Fire is born in us as a spark and it has to grow--something like starting a fire in the woods with flint and steel and working at making it grow big enough to provide warmth. The Divine Fire will continue to warm us in eternity because it will already have warmed us here and grown in us--it is the Fire of Love. When the Divine Fire embraces one in eternity, it will be something already experienced within and then will embrace us without. So we will be in a communion with God: His Fire, His Life grown within us and embracing us without. I see the image in the Dikiri used by the Byzantine bishop: two flames coming together, neither occluding the other but being together as one--seems an apt image of the communion we seek with Christ.

Conversely, those who are self-centered and have only their own coldness inside now and throughout their lives will feel the embrace of Divine Love as eternal suffering since they will experience it only as something external, something they cannot relate to or have spent their time rejecting.

This is what I was aiming at when I said that it would be Hell to be forced to live with Someone one did not have a relationship with and did not love: something like an arranged marriage when you love someone else.

Another image I have read about sees the person as cold inside and living in a place that is cold externally since the Fire of the Divine Love is absent. The situation leaves one completely alone since one has spent a lifetime seeking to gratify and serve only oneself. The torment that is there comes from there being no answer to the question "what have I done" or "where did I go wrong"?

That last sentence was something of a "tongue-in-cheek" remark, but holds some validity. Have you ever come to the point when you've had a bad day, started preparing for confession, and had it hits you that it's a good thing God is more merciful than you have been all day? Kind of humbling.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob,

Wise and informative. Thank you for taking the time to post all of the above. What I meant about the fireworks is that I do appreciate the mellowness(is that a good word or what?) of your words. Actually I have always had a thing against fireworks ever since the time I was ten and lit one with a short fuse in a pile of cow pucky. It exploded right in my face!!

I remember taking a course in summer school at a Jesuit university back in the 60's. It was the summer I got married as well as began my first attempt at graduate studies. (Didn't get the M.A. until 1985 though because among other things marriage involved taking a break from academic studies, moving to Alaska, birthing and raising children, teaching, counseling, administrating, and helping with the business, etc.) Anyway, in the class (have forgotten the name of the Theology course) that summer we discussed something which was exciting. It was the idea of the fire of Divine Love (in us too) and how that is the growing culmination of our earthly lives and the beginning of our next life, i.e., eternal life. (immortality)

So it has rung clear to me for a very long time now that what you say is true. I now see it as the deification process. The kingdom of Heaven is within and is here and hereafter. So it is with Love. I rely on the Grace of God for that love to grow in and transform me because I keep losing it, and getting it back, and losing it, and...... cf. Ps. 40. "I waited patiently for the Lord: he turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire, he set my feet on a rock, and gave me a firm place to stand. He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God."

Happy 4th to you and yours with or without the fireworks?

Mary Jo

" . . . I keep losing it, and getting it back, and losing it, and . . ."

Mary Jo:

I don't believe we ever lose it: God is faithful even when we are not once He has committed to Covenant via Baptism with us.

I believe what you have experienced is that He gives us a little room to see if we want to go on to the next level. Much like a lover who does not rush us, our God is a Lover who lets us deepen the relationship as we are able. We are never drowned or suffocated in it. We move along as we can absorb.

Does any of this make sense or am I still off the wall?

It seems to me that we catch fire with this love once we realize that all the answers to life's questions, problems, seeming unfairness come to our accepting the challenge to "trust Me." He Who loved us first asks us to love Him back, trust Him, and walk a pilgrim journey that never ends, even though the earthly phase of the relationship passes to an eternal one. Good News? You're never going to die!!! Now if that isn't good news, I don't know what is. How about "I want to absorb Myself into every fiber of your being so that we can be as intimately in relationship as two can be" (absorbing the Lord in Communion)? It can make one a bit giddy when one sits and meditates on the reality of what Jesus Christ came here to do for us.

Set our hearts on fire with love for You, O Christ, our God, that in its flame we may love You with our whole heart, our whole soul, our whole mind, and our whole strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, so that, keeping Your commandments we may give glory to You, the giver of all good things. AMEN.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob,

"Does any of this make sense or am I still off the wall?"

Makes sense and you are not off the wall! "Losing it" is probably not a good way to describe what I was trying to say. Maybe "losing it" is how I feel sometimes, but I know God is there for me.

AMEN to the prayer too. \o/

Mary Jo

No hell?!?

Ask any vostochnyk in a Basilian parish, or one anywhere in Brasil!

Oύτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντίδα | Nemo nos diliget non curamus

P.S.
Lauro, are you still with us?