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#87021 11/10/04 02:25 AM
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Hi Daniel,
I don't think that ByzanTN has said anything out of line.

I agree with him. The rosary can be said anywhere, at any agreed time or place.

We still need to restore the Divine Praises, if the rosary is in the way it should move.

However, I can also agree with John K who said:
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I for one, would be happy to LEAD the rosary before the liturgy on a sunday morning, if I could get one pastor, somewhere, to have VESPERS on saturday night.


If compromises must be made, sure let's do it. Let's restore the proper prayer of the church in one way or another.

Michael

#87022 11/10/04 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by iconophile:
Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit
I was actually thinking more about a situation that existed here at one time. People who knew what was required were so attached to the rosary, they substituted it for approved pre-Liturgy prayers. That's no longer the case, but what good is authority if you don't follow it. If the lady you are talking about had her bishop's approval, then more power to her.

#87023 11/10/04 02:33 AM
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We still need to restore the Divine Praises, if the rosary is in the way it should move.
Yes, we do need to restore the Divine Praises. Those prayers are very powerful and do much good. It's too bad they are frequently neglected.

#87024 11/10/04 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by iconophile:
Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit
Dear Daniel,

I think you are willfully misunderstanding Charles. Where in your original tale does it say that her bishop told her to organize a group to pray the rosary INSTEAD OF an established service of the church? Charles is objecting, not to a group being formed to pray the rosary, not to the rosary being used in private devotions, but to the replacement of Matins by the rosary.

In this, he is quite correct, in that if you think that a bishop in another diocese can send someone into a diocese controlled by another bishop, and tell them that she had his blessing to replace a service of the church with the Rosary, you've really got another thought coming. The bishop in question would have no authority in Ohio to do any such thing, as it wasn't his jurisdiction!

It would be different, of course, if the first bishop was to call the second bishop, and consult with the parish priest and recommend that the lady be allowed to start a group to pray the rosary, at some time OTHER THAN the time the church ustav states that other ervices should be happening.

Gaudior, who thinks that there is nothing wrong with corporate prayer of an approved fashion, unless it interferes with the regularly scheduled services

#87025 11/10/04 02:36 AM
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At the time this practice was initiated the juridical situation was a bit confused; if you recall, the Rusin churches were quite unnaturally and illegitimately under the Latin bishops; Rusin priests may be forgiven if they had ties to the Old Country.Remember that Rusin Catholic history is one of contention and much confusion.
My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have Matins before the liturgy.
-Daniel

#87026 11/10/04 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by iconophile:
My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have the proper prayers before the liturgy.
Wonderful...best of all worlds!

Gaudior, pleased that your pastor is one who will restore the services of the Church

#87027 11/10/04 03:03 AM
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My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have Matins before the liturgy.
-Daniel
Sounds good to me!

#87028 11/10/04 03:06 AM
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Isn't it nice [and rare] when we can come to a conclusion where everyone is happy? smile cool smile biggrin
Now go, pray the Rosary, all of you.

#87029 11/10/04 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by iconophile:
Isn't it nice [and rare] when we can come to a conclusion where everyone is happy? smile cool smile biggrin
Now go, pray the Rosary, all of you.
I will pray, but not the rosary. :p I am more likely to get out the Psalms or Byzantine evening prayers.

#87030 11/10/04 01:58 PM
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Dear Charles,

If you think we're going to let you off so easy, you are mistaken! smile

I thought as you long ago.

I would like to recommend that you try the rosary with a word or words added to the Hail Mary's that relate to the mysteries of the Life, Death and Resurrection of OLGS Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Theotokos.

Once I tried that, there was no going back!

Try it, you might like it . . .

And St Louis de Montfort said this about the Rosary, or, as he preferred to call it, the Psalter of Our Lady - he said that priests and monastics, when they recited the Marian Psalter daily found that they were MORE inclined to be pulled toward the Horologion and the Psalter than ever before!

The Psalter of the Mother of God in my life has done just that - I want to say the Jesus Prayer and the Horologion and the Psalter and it produces a fire within one to desire these things - as well as frequent Holy Communion at the Divine LIturgy!

So TRY it, you might like it . . .

Alex

#87031 11/10/04 03:19 PM
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Alex, I have tried it and it doesn't do a thing for me. Like you said, it's 5 decades long. I prefer our Eastern devotions, and they generally don't have all the hysteria surrounding them that one gets from rosary advocates. No visions, questionable apparitions, and even more questionable histories that are often quoted as evidence for the rosary. If you like the rosary and derive some spiritual benefit from it, fine, you should pray it. Notice that I never said anyone else should stop praying it. The traditional prayers from the East are just as good, just as valid, and have as much or more going for them as the rosary.

#87032 11/10/04 03:27 PM
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MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE US!

I remember a story told by one priestmonk several years ago: a priest was trying to escape from Russia at the time of the Revolution (when it was most difficult to travel for anyone)...and of course this priest, although in civilian dress, could be recognized by his beard and 'ponytail.' An elder from Optina told him NOT to ever get off the train and to be constantly saying during the whole trip the 'angelic salutation' (the Hail Mary) because the Mother of God was GREATLY pleased by this prayer and she would protect him during the journey. The priest did as he was told, but somewhere along the line he got out of the train to stretch and was recognized by the police who tried to take him into custody. Then he remembered the words of the elder and he begin to say again the Hail Mary---and the police released him...and he lived many years in exile in this country. What struck me about the story was not so much the release by the police, but rather the elder's words about how much the Mother of God loved to hear the prayer. What better way to carry out this 'rule of prayer' than to say the Rosary in her honor? The Rosary helps us to remain focused by adding the meditation on the Mysteries of our Salvation...and so it is easier to remain recollected and to be attentive to our prayers.

I seems to me, that those who choose not to use the Rosary...have less of a way to carry out this prayer rule of praising the Mother of God with some regularity...unless they say the Akathist or some other prayer, and we all know that the more complex the prayer, the more difficult it often is to pray without distraction. Just my honest thoughts...I mean no disrespect to anyone. The important thing again is to use the method of prayer that is best for YOU. Real/true devotion to the Mother of God MUST have some kind of REGULAR DAILY expression or it seems to me that it is not real/authentic, but just words...whether it is the Rosary or the Canon to the Theotokos or the Little Office or whatever, it seems to me that we ALL need to have some regular daily form of expression of love and devotion to Her who is higher than the angels...even if it is just 3 Hail Mary's a day. Whatever words for YOU.

Whatever method you use, I ask for one tiny prayer for me...and I shall definitely remember each of you in my poor prayers daily.

Her poorest son,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#87033 11/10/04 03:33 PM
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Whatever method you use, I ask for one tiny prayer for me...and I shall definitely remember each of you in my poor prayers daily.

Her poorest son,
+Fr. Gregory
Thank you, that's kind of you to remember all of us. And btw, I think quite highly of the Mother of God, I just don't express it with the rosary. That prayer, although useful to many, is not the only way to pray - as some would have us believe. I think you touch on that quite nicely, and you have also mentioned that praying is the thing that's important, by whatever method that works best for the individual. Many prayers for you.

#87034 11/10/04 03:35 PM
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Dear Charles,

I agree we should only do Eastern devotions!

Here is a great Eastern prayer:

"Rejoice O Theotokos-Virgin, Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with you, Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, for you have given birth to Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer of our souls!"

And when meditating on the Crucifixion, one could say, at the end:

"for you have given birth to Christ the Saviour, from Whose Side flowed Blood and Water, the Redeemer of our souls!"

I share your love for our Eastern devotions!

( wink )

Oh, Oh, and before I forget, St Seraphim of Sarov and a whole host of other Orthodox Saints had all kinds of visions of the Mother of God and of Saints.

St Seraphim even took down a monastic prayer rule that was dictated by "you know who!"

God bless,

Alex

#87035 11/10/04 03:41 PM
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Bless, Father Gregory!

You just have such a wonderful way with words!! smile

And you are right!

I have a cord-rosary from a lady in Louisiana that I always keep with me.

No matter where I am, on the forum talking with Jennifer, or wherever, I take out that cord-rosary or prayer rope and the prayers are there to celebrate the mysteries of the life, death and resurrection of OLGS Jesus Christ while praising His Most Holy Mother!

Before going on a cruise of the Caribbean, my wife went on one of her shopping sprees in Ft. Lauderdale the day before we were to go aboard.

I had nothing to do but wait out the whole day . . . More than a few decades were said that day, suffice it to say!

After our cruise, we all received press reports that the day the cruise was to set sail, FIVE men dressed as U.S. security guards tried to get on board but were caught as their ID's were not in order.

They were, as I understand it, quite fluent in Arabic . . .

Most Holy Mother of God - thank you!!

P.s. and your words about how important the Hail Mary is - St Seraphim would agree with you! He had it on the Highest Authority!!

(you don't think I'm deluded, do you? wink )

Alex

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