The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Galumph, Leon_C, Rocco, Hvizsgyak, P.W.
5,984 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 456 guests, and 39 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,389
Posts416,722
Members5,984
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
#87066 11/18/04 03:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Amigo Amado,

The ONLY time IA even hinted at that was when she referred to the Byzantine Catholic what-nots.

I too confess to being confused by that moniker, as I've been by the monikers of other Old Catholics I've come across.

At NO point did IA (and there is an Irish St IA, you know!) affirm that SHE was in communion with Rome, and only alluded to the possibility as a result of her monastery being in communion with the above group.

A simple error, and not a culpable one as I'm sure you would agree.

Agreement or not, MY pastor has told us to stay away from the Churches you've listed as having intercommunion agreements . . .

Not everyone is as ecumenical as you, Big Guy.

And I've also met people who are confused by "Orthodox Catholic" and think they are in communion with Rome too.

Again, I suggest you speak to Bob Orthoman on that score, if you have the inclination . . .

I think you and Fr. Deacon Edward and those who agree with you are in "invincible error."

There, is that Roman enough for you? wink

Alex

#87067 11/18/04 04:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780
F
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780
Dear Alex,

As the moderator of this forum, I have a responsiblity to see that communication is as fair and equitable as I can make it. But as a cleric I have a duty to ensure that people are not misled. I got a fairly long PM from a poster who was concerned that IA might mislead people. It was for that reason that I posted what I did.

As for others who post here in a strident tone, I also try to counsel them -- although usually privately. Because this one had the possiblity of confusion (as evidenced in several posts), I chose to respond on the board (the fact that IA has PMs blocked contributed to that decision).

Fr. Deacon Edward

#87068 11/18/04 04:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Father Deacon Edward,

Since I know for sure that YOU are a legitimate Catholic, I accept your words with great happiness and submission!

Alex (who has also been stung by private e-mails to moderators)

#87069 11/18/04 04:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 1
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 1
The Old Catholic church in my area calls itself Antiochian Rite Catholic. Some of these names do cause a good deal of confusion. I think it is OK to ask for verification on positions presented, as long as it's done civilly. I do that when something possibly can be verified. If it's some apparition, private revelation, or unverifiable folklore - sometimes maybe wishful thinking - it's all up in the air as to whether or not anyone could ever accept those as valid or verifiable in the first place. But this is not a courtroom and the standard of proof is much, much lower here. A good point to keep in mind, perhaps? smile

#87070 11/18/04 04:35 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Tony,

Certainly, I forgot to through quotes around both churches later in that post. Is their a canonical Orthodox diocese in Hungary or just some parishes?

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#87071 11/18/04 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
Tony,

Certainly, I forgot to through quotes around both churches later in that post. Is their a canonical Orthodox diocese in Hungary or just some parishes?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Dear Deacon Lance,

There are in fact several canonical jurisdictions in Hungary.

The one that uses Hungarian liturgically the most is under the MP and HILARION (Alfeyev) is the bishop. IIRC it is a diocese not merely parishes. The MP represents the largest jurisdiction present AFAIK.

The Serbian and Romanian Churches are represented and I think there are Bulgarian parishes. At one time the Serbian Patriach(ate) fled the Ottomans and established itself with many Serbs in Szentendre near Budapest.

There was an historic presence of Greek merchants as well and there is an old Greek Orthodox Church in Miskolc (again, IIRC, it's been a few years since I was there last). There have been some squabbles between the MP and the EP over jurisdiction in Hungary recently.

I asked you to clarify this so as to not lend any notion that a canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction has entered unilaterally into Communion with some vagante, or similar, group. (As no sui juris Catholic Church would either.) The situation of the ROCOR and perhaps some other old calendar groups are different, of course.

Tony

#87072 11/18/04 05:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
Another "slip" then showing, which immediately kept my appreciation of the Irish Anchoress' vocation unhinged, was her "avocation" to making beautiful rosaries as advertised in her website but said, in response to Alice, that she has not come to praying the Holy Rosary itself!

It was a negative jolt, small as it may be, to this rosary-devotee RC while reading the testimonies of some Orthodox on their own "personal" devotion, especially that of Fr. Gregory!

But it is not earth-shaking! wink

Amado

#87073 11/18/04 05:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Charles,

Bravo!

Alex

#87074 11/18/04 05:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595
Likes: 1
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,595
Likes: 1
Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
Another "slip" then showing, which immediately kept my appreciation of the Irish Anchoress' vocation unhinged, was her "avocation" to making beautiful rosaries as advertised in her website but said, in response to Alice, that she has not come to praying the Holy Rosary itself!

It was a negative jolt, small as it may be, to this rosary-devotee RC while reading the testimonies of some Orthodox on their own "personal" devotion, especially that of Fr. Gregory!

But it is not earth-shaking! wink
Amado
Amado ,

the other one from that same post - which attracted my attention was
Quote
Neither the rosary nor Mary were part of my upbringing an they are still closed to me.
.

The reference to our Beloved Mother really saddened me and it came back to me later frown

How can anyone not have a devotion to Our Blessed Lady ?

In her very next Post on this thread IA said
Quote
I was raised Church of England, when that was a very different Church from now; a strong and simple faith
From my own knowledge I cannot think of a single Church of England Church which does not have either a Lady Chapel or Altar for Our Lady - and there is of course that wonderful Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.

I'm sorry - but these posts spoke volumes to me frown frown

Anhelyna

#87075 11/18/04 06:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Bless and thank you Alice, and it is fine to ask always. I was raised Church of England, when that was a very different Church from now; a strong and simple faith. I am now not a member of any denominational Church. And I am a Consecrated Anchoress/Nun in a Religious Order; Living Stream, Little Sisters, Sisters of Faith. My Vows and my vocation are in the safe-keeping of our Arch-Abbess. The Order is Old Catholic, founded in England in 1860; we are in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics in Canada - which is how I am here with you; and thus with Rome.
I find this very interesting Sister, as there were no Old Catholic Churches in England prior to the consecration of Archbishop Arnold Harris Mathew in 1980? I spent 9 years as an Old Catholic priest and had a huge library of Old Catholic books and documents, as well as correspondence with clergy in various Old Catholic/Independent Catholic and Orthodox jurisdictions, most of whom traced their orders back to Archbishop Mathew (including myself) and in none of that was there recorded being any parish or religous communities in England styling themselves "Old Catholic" until after the time of his consecration. Don

#87076 11/18/04 06:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,990
Likes: 10
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,990
Likes: 10
Dear Angela,

My uncle (of blessed memory), aunt, and cousins are members of the Episcopal Church here and they never had a devotion of any sort to our Lady...

I attended church with them many times as a child, (before modernist changes), and never remember any mention of our Lady....

I don't know if any of them could seek our blessed Lady's intercessions in the same way the Orthodox and Catholics do.

I don't know if it is different in the Anglican Church of the United Kingdom?

Forgive my interjection if it is.

In Christ,
Alice

#87077 11/18/04 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Former
Moderator
OP Offline
Former
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Dear Brothers & Sisters, +CHRIST IN OUR VERY MIDST! Your points are well taken and I agree that we must all try and be as honest and exact as possible when speaking about 'where we are coming from.' But consider that Sister may not even be aware of the differences and may not know the difference between the 'Byzantine Catholic church' that she speaks of and knows...and The Byzantine Catholic Churches in communion with Rome? Just a possibility...and I confess that I don't know the answer, but I just always try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone understands all the complexities of The Theology of Church as many of you who are well read and well versed in ecclesiastical subjects. To many (even me at times) this whole area in theology often remains a maze to many. It IS, I would think possible...that she has been told that the Canadian group of which she speaks is in 'communion with Rome' and therefore, the church she belongs to has some formal relationship with the Roman Catholic Church. Possible?

Never fear dear brothers and sisters, the Lord is more than capable of protecting and taking care of His Church...and He will bring Sister and all of us to deeper growth in Christ with time...as He brings any young child to a deeper knowledge of Himself in the Holy Eucharist.

My comments were made simply to urge kindness and gentleness in all communication with those who may not even understand the deeper issues here.

With admiration for each and everyone of you...and asking for your holy prayers,

I remain your poor brother,
+Father Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#87078 11/18/04 06:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Bless, Father Gregory,

You are too wonderful for words, did you know that? smile

I remember picking up an old prayer-book in the library here that identified itself as "Greek-Catholic."

No mention of Rome at all . . . Guess what? That was an Orthodox prayerbook!

Another Old Catholic or whatever acquaintance asked me to come up with a name for his group.

I suggested, "Evangelical Orthodox Catholic."

And, guess what . . .

That's right! smile

Kissin' your right hand, I agin implore your blessin' (that's how the American Easter Orthodox Southwest Congregation of the Oriental Order of St Benedict say it . . . wink )

Alex

#87079 11/18/04 06:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Bless, Father Don!

How WONDERFUL to see you back on this forum!

I knew it was just a matter of time . . .

Was there ever a movement to canonize Arnold Matthews by the Old Catholics? Was he esteemed in that way at all?

The Synod of Milan includes Bishop Matthews' confession of Orthodox faith at the back of their prayer book.

They style it, "Orthodox Old Catholic."

But, hey, if there can be "Orthodox Greek Catholics," what the . . . wink

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

#87080 11/18/04 06:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,990
Likes: 10
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,990
Likes: 10
I don't know about all the jurisdictional/canonical/non-canonical, etc. nit-picking, as it is out of my element, but I did understand that Irish Anchoress was non-denominational from the get go.

I thought that her spirit and soul were refreshing and that her spirituality was on target.

Who cares if she is canonical or not? There are so many people who are in the 'right' canonical churches (or even sometimes-- the 'right' non-canonical churches), people who are in the 'correct' jurisdictions or people who are in the 'right' communions with the 'right' Patriarchs, and who do the 'correct' rubrics and traditions, but who do not have spirits and love that come even close to hers.

Perhaps I might have cared if her non-canonical/questionable jurisdictional status was here to create disharmony or was here to tell others how they are heretics or that there churches have 'strayed'. I might have cared if she was here to advocate liberal/modernist agendas.

The fact that she did not come here with the 'my faith is more correct than yours' type of rhetoric which has become all too commonplace on the internet, and which has become personally tiring to my soul, and which in my humble opinion, does nothing to build up conservative Christianity, to me was simply, refreshing.

Let's remember that we are discussing a very real human being, who, although we cannot see, has feelings like the rest of us...and yes, has sins and faults, just like the rest of us.

I am really dismayed at how she was treated here. I too was treated badly when I first came on here, after being open enough to say that I was Greek Orthodox. That meant different things to different people here, and assumptions and generalizations clouded the way people talked to me... and it was very rude at first! I will NEVER forget that it was Alex who stepped in with his kind manner to defend me and to welcome me
....
So, I do not want to do what others have done to me. I know how it feels. I really thought that we were all above that. If we don't like a poster for whatever reason, how about just not talking to them?

Forgive me if I have offended anyone, (especially those here that I love and respect) or am being too preachy. I am a sinner with many faults of my own.

Alice, who will retreat from writing here for the rest of the day.

Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5