www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Byzan. Population Drops Significantly?

Fr. Lance,

I think that the point some were trying to make was that they believe the two (the cause of the loss of parishioners and the restoration of tradition) to be strongly linked.

But this thread has more posts than I have ever posted. Well, almost.

Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI

http://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/humpty.html
among many others.

Not entirely fair to your criticism of Webster...
But relevant to discussions in this thread. If we don't agree on what we mean by tradition, then it's awfully hard to identify traditions and support them.

Oh, and I did take one liberty with the text.

Cizinec,

Your post hit both eyes. Yes, there is a fine line between experience and rhetoric. I apologize if I get both confused at times.

Joe

Nothing against textual criticism - but Lewis Carroll is not exactly a source of Orthodox Catholic tradition! On the other hand, maybe Humpty Dumpty was really a pysanka? Incognitus

Cizinec,

Point taken, but my point was it can be both ways. Some say one generation didn't teach our traditions and we lost members. Others say to rigorous a restoration all at once will drive others away in some places. I am certainly not saying it is true everywhere.

However, I think the biggest loss was because of convenience not lack of love for our tradition. I know many Byzantines that becasue of distance and location attend a Latin parish but come "home" for Christmas and Pascha and have their weddings and funerals there as well. They prefer the Byzantine tradition. It is not becasue they are Latinized that they attend the Latin parish they just are not going to drive an hour to Church when Catholic is Catholic, which is what they were taught, and the Latin Church is next door.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I actually thought Humpty Dumpty was a foreshadowing of a certain former US President.

Dear Father Lance,

This certainly is the case with many of our parishoners.

Clearly. And equally clearly no such claim was made.

DJS offers us the assurance that nobody was claiming that Lewis Carroll is a source of Orthodox Catholic tradition - as if djs seriously believes that someone thought the contrary! I take it for granted that the introduction of Humpty Dumpty into the discussion was intended to bring a welcome bit of levity into the conversation, so I responded in kind. Theology and Liturgy quite properly have their ludic dimensions. I hope this present comment is heavy enough for djs to understand it. Incognitus

Dear djs;

Just a few thoughts concerning your statement above.

In fact the incorporation of Halych (Galicia) and Subcarpathia-Rus into the Soviet Union was not viewed as a "happy reconciliation". It was brutal, and included forced famine, deportations, executions, incarceration, torture, and a complete destruction of both the UGCC and the Carpatho-Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church. But what a professor once told me was that Joseph Stalin's biggest mistake was to unite all of the Rusyn land into one state - Ukraina. Something the Rusyns could not do themselves in spite of several tries.

For better or worse, the Rusyn of the Carpathian mountains have sheed their need to be identified as Uhro (Hungarian). I can say this with 100% certainty for both those residing in Ukraine, and those in Slovakia. Rusyns no longer have to be subserviant to Hungarians, Poles, and we are still working on the inferiority complex some have in relation to the Russians. My father told me that Moses had his people walk through a desert for two generations before they reached the promised land. He said they did this so that his people would have no more memory of their servitude to the Egyptians and would begin acting 'like masters in their own home'. Let's just say some of the Eastern Ukrainians (Rusyns) have another 20 years before they reach the promissed land.

As you mention the Ruthenian (Carpatho-Rus) Greek Catholic Churche is sui juris, but this church as well as all of those on the territory of Ukraine cooperate for the re-evangelization of the people. Unfortuntely the communist system destroyed the world our forefathers left behind. What all of the Slavic Christian Churches in Ukraine have realized is that they must work in tandem to re-evangelize the people. The people of Ukraine (where most Rusyn live) are demanding that old feuds be put aside for the common good of the people. Today, all the Churches of Ukraine-Rus try to cooperate and do so in a very public way so as to show example. The UGCC and the Slovak GCC in Canada cooperate very well and perhaps it is time to do the same here in the USA. Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholics were not on the friendliest terms two generations ago either, but today they cooperate. There are still no "administrative relationships" between these churches, but they do cooperate openly today so as to set an example.

Although you may not regard the treaty of Breast as in "Uhro-Rus as a product of the treaty of Breast and the dislocation of the people of Kyiv-Rus", at very least this treaty had a strong influence on the people of Carpatho-Rus. The Western Rus land rejected the Unia in the beginning, but eventually in gradual steps began to accept it also. Some of the bishops openly accepted the byzantine rite and others secretly until their faithfull could better understand the need to be in union with the Holy Sea. Each Western bishoptoric did accepted the union in gradual steps. The last of the Rusyn lands, Carpatho-Rus did this roughly 100 years after the Metropolitans of Kyiv-Rus. The ties between the Halych and Subcarpathian Rusyns was week (because this is how the Poles and Hungarians wanted it to be) but there is ample evidence that the flow of church information affairs over the Carpathian mountains.

According to historian Paul Macgocsi of the University of Toronto, you are of the same blood of both Patriarch Lubomy (UGCC) and the holy father John Paul II (Roman Catholic Church). In Macgocsi' 'Atlas of Ukraine'and 'History of Ukraine' he clearly indicates that the Carpatho-Rusyns came from the Ruthenian Peremysl eparchy (now in Poland). Basically, they crossed over (from East to West) the Carpathian Moutains and settled. Peremysl is in Halych(yna). The Patriarch Lubomyr (UGCC) is 100% Ruthenian / Ukrainian from Halych. The Holy Father John Paul II's mother is also a Halych Rusyn which would make him 50% blood like yours - he has mentioned this on many occassions. Therefore, both of these church leaders are of your blood - Rusyn.

I'm sorry that your and my ansestors had a dispute in Pensylvania several generations ago. I like Father Joe's SWOT approach to church affairs. Perhaps the same could be done in regards to colaborative effort bettween the two largest Greek Catholic Churches.

I agree that there we are not required to use the pre-fix "Uhro", but it comes in handy to refer to the Rusyn people who lived in the Hungarian kingdom and who are now in Slovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Czech Republic, and Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. For these people border changes over the last century have divided us, rather than seriving to unite us in one state. I use it to underscore this fact and the accompanying distinctive perspective on history and identity, not from any sense of servitude.

I don't dispute a flow of information across the mountains. On the other hand the geographical barriers were a facton in the development of distinct outlooks. Fr. Chirovsky writes thoughfully on this point. "What's in a name"
http://www.ucns-holyfamily.org/newslttr.html

I am all for cooperation. I think it is a necessity. But, ISTM, that you maintain a view, that DavidB already criticized, which does not allow for the distinctiveness of the trans-Capathian Rusyns. This attitude is a barrier to cooperation. The "of our own blood" refers to a line in the Clash of Titans that I've quoted here before. http://www.cin.org/clash20.html

In fact the pieces have been glued together and he has returned as Humky Dumky; a giant Slavic pagan idol who is adored by both dancers and armed men on horseback. For more info:

http://www.vegrevillechamber.com/pysankastory.htm

Several years ago I was in the neighborhood, drove out to Vegreville, and saw The Pysanka for myself. However, it wasn't until I saw the pictures just now that I had a brain wave - can we not arrange to paint up the Goodyear Blimp like a pysanka and fly it over appropriate places on Pascha?
Incognitus

Does the restoration of traditions empty parishes, or contribute to the decline?

I tend to think the matter of whether or not restoration of traditions causes some folks to decide to leave the church is misleading. Tradition is not regarded as being subject to social approval. Rather, it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.