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Guys,

Here is a new topic to move the language in the Liturgy to from the Seminarian Formation thread.

This past Saturday was our monthly Liturgical Committee meeting.

The choir director actually said that some of the people that no longer attend this Melkite parish do so because of the lack of arabic. Our Liturgy is mostly in english with some arabic and greek.

He said that these people think that if they are going to attend an american church they will go to the Roman church because in the "home land" (Lebanon) the Melkite Church uses arabic.

My question is, doesn't the Roman Churches in Lebanon also use arabic?

I also know for a fact that if this church decides to go to 100% arabic they will lose at least half of the current regular attendees. And this group is also one that volunteers for most of the functions that go on.


David

Dear David,

This reminds me of the view that people leave their "ethnic" Church not only because of the language issue and indeed it may only be a smokescreen for the real underlying cause.

They may wish to join a "mainstream" Church altogether and that means a church that not only uses English, but that is also "culturally mainstream" as well, with no cupolas, no bearded priests etc.

They want to assimilate to the mainstream and that means "Bye, bye Eastern Church."

Alex

Sigh.

Once again, this past Sunday was one of our twice-monthly Slavonic Sundays. Mind you, that means that anywhere from 40-85% of the Liturgy is in Slavonic.

Maybe 20% of our elderly parishioners are of an ethnicity to actually understand it. In Columbus there are two Byzantine churches. Folks whose ancestors came from the cold parts of the world come to us (along with a buncha Vatican II refugees and a surprising number of converts) and folks fronm the hotter parts tend to pray with the Melkites. Being the only 2 Eastern-in-union-with-Rome games in town (tho there used to be a small Maronite community too) we are an extremely mixed bag, ethnically speaking. On "Slavonic Sundays" I see fewer families with children. I see my husband, who has great facility with computer languages, but little talent for human languages (beyond his native American English) sitting through the Liturgy as something to be endured - while he also tries to keep our rather ballistic 5 year old under control (that's language-independent, LOL).

We have a 1000 year tradition of Liturgy in the vernacular. Except in America. Go figure.

I know there are churches where maintaining the "old" language makes sense - at least for some of the services. I don't think I'm in one of those parishes.

I always enjoy the Sunday Slavonic Liturgy at Uniontown. Why? Because it's NOT the only Liturgical opportunity of the day, and the folks who are there WANT to be there (instead of at an English Liturgy). And of course - the Liturgy is beautiful. As a cantor, I can get through about 90% of a Liturgy in Slavonic credibly. But I freely admit that I don't understand the language. Yes, the English is on the other side of the page, but praying while you translate is just as annoying now as it was when I was growing up & doing it in Hebrew instead of Slavonic.

My rambling $.02


I dunno what the answer is in your parish.

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

The reality is PRECISELY as our sister Sharon has demonstrated. There are indeed a number of folks for whom the Slavonic/Greek/Arabic is part of their blood and childhood. And they love to hear it sung at Liturgy and in "churchy" things. AND, as good Christians, we should be both aware and accommodating of what makes them happy.

At the same time, there are those whose awareness of their genetic past is less than felicitous. They love hearing the Slavonic/Greek/Arabic, and have a less than adequate awareness of what is being sung/spoken. They might be able to sing the "O Only-Begotten Son" in the ancient language, but they have no idea of what they are saying. It's just 'comforting'. No problem with that either.

However, for the non-ethnic crowd and the "X-generation ethnics", if we don't catechize them to what we believe and how we pray, then we are just doing a 'supercalifragilespiexpialidocius" exercise that has as much validity as a tarot card reading or a horoscope. It's "mystical" or "it's spiritual" and it has no freakin' content whatsoever. (In a group exercise lately with some RCs, I have been appaled at the number of folks who do the 'tarot card' and other 'reader' sort of stuff as valid expressions of their lives, even while considering themselves Christians. I know that our Eastern European/Mediterranean ancestors had some 'understanding' of this, but I was just blown away by their incredible ignorance and confusion between legitimate spirituality and hucksterism. Boy, do we have some education to do!!!)

There is, apparently, some innate element in the human psyche that is craving a "mystical" or "incomprehensible/spiritual" experience. But to allow our church community to devolve into "cant" (in-comprehensible chant/song), then we are doing a real disservice to folks in allowing them to believe that this is religious. It's not. Christ told us to love the Lord God and love our neighbors as ourselves. There is nothing there about ritual chanting.

So: serve the needs of the legitimate ethnics; serve the needs of the later-generation ethnics (but cautiously); and serve the nedds of the new pilgrims by liturgical education that will bring them to the historical realities of our Eastern traditions.

Blessings to All!

Here at St Georges, the language is taken care of in Arabic, Greek, and English, with a splash of Slavonic. It works out well, the combination is used as in Holy God, it would be sang in each vernacular. works well

Greetings All,

I attend a very small mission church north of Boston. We use the Romanian language for the entire liturgy. The decision was made to use Romanian because a large portion of the people are new imigrants and they really do not understand English.

However, we do realize that in order for us to survive, we need to use Enlgish, but when do we make the switch. If we switch to soon, we will loose the people that we have.

So we start slowly. We read the gospel in both English and Romanian, and we say the creed in both English and Romanian.

It is a start, and we have to move slowly. ONe of the parishs in the eparchy actually split in two because of the language issue. We have a hrd time support the parishes that we have without being split in two over language.

Peace to you all,

Peter

Br. Peter,

My best wishes and prayers for the success of your community. It seems clear this is a very sensitive and pastoral matter that is best worked out on the parish level.

Axios

In our parish, we use Slavonic for:

*Trisagion and "All You Who Have Been Baptized"
*Lord's Prayer
*Hymns (same hymn, singing English and Slavonic verses)

It also appears that we will soon be using Slavonic for the longer Ektenias.

(Actually, I've been pushing for "Hospodi, pomiluj" for some time now).

I believe that the use of Slavonic for the commons can help foster the sense that we are not in the everyday world anymore when we are at the Divine Liturgy, as if we were giving the Cherubic Hymn a little extra punch - at any rate, it helps me set aside my earthly cares. I haven't found the use of Slavonic particularly painful, even when I had to "exam cram" the pronunciation after I was asked to be a cantor.

I don't think the following should be done in Slavonic in non-ethnic parishes: creed, kontakia, troparia, Epistle, Gospel. I'm undecided about the Anaphora in Slavonic.

Just my $0.02...

Here all the Eastern Churches use Spanish in the Liturgy.
In the Melkite cathedral (Poarta Cerului) Spanish is used and only the Lord's Prayer and some prayers are said in Arabic (the Trisagion is in Greek of course). The Antiochian Orthodox Church has the same use.
Maronites are a bit different, Syriac is still used and Arabic too (more than Spanish).
The Exarchate of the OCA uses only Spanish, although the chants sound more Greek than Slavonic. Most of the parishoners are ethnic Mexicans, that's why foreign language isn't use.
The Moscow patriarchate has a small parish in Nepantla and the priest is ethnic Mexican too (I havent been there so I dont now if they have the Slavonic liturgy)

That is certainly great to hear. When we do outreach as Eastern Christians, we need to bend over backwards to make sure that our potential converts get a true sense of what our spiritual life is all about without forcing them to become foreigners in their own lands.

Is there a good attendance in these Spanish speaking OCA (and other) parishes?

Blessings!

Re: Greek Orthodoxy in AmeriCA

If American converts to Islam can learn the Islamic prayers in Arabic, certainly converts to Greek Orthodoxy shouldn't object to learning the basic liturgical prayers of the Greek liturgy, in the language of the people who have invited one to be the guest in the house where all are welcome to sup with the Lord Jesus, God and King.


Orthodoxy is about meekness and submission to the will of God, and, it is especially about charity.

Elbowing oneself into a community of "foreigners" and demanding they "do things my way or I am out of here," is the way of an ingrate, and it is not the Christian way. This applies to liturgical language ( in this case Greek) as well as other ethnic traditions.

When it comes to learning "foreign tongues," we Americans are lazy brains. Would it "kill" the average convert if he or she "had" to learn just a few prayers in Greek, Slavonic, etc? (However, I imagine many of the participants here are bilingual.)

Salaam/Irenee,

Abdur

Slava Isusu Hristu!

I'm a utlitarian when it comes to language. Language is a human tool to communicate ideas. More accurately, feeling and ideas.

Let's say one of us had a bit of legal problems in, say, Belarus (not an unlikely scenario). Assume we are North American, English speakers (again, no offence to the Distinct Society in Quebec, Mexico, Central America and Greenland). Assume further that we understand Russian and Belarusky. I doubt we would feel comfortable without an English translator for the court case. We would want to know every single term.... and be able to comprehend the nuances of certain words.

I understand French and am alright at its creole variant in Haiti. However, when I worked on some asylum cases awhile ago, I definitely had a translator. I basically understood the words of the applicant, but the translator 1. corrected the parts I missed; 2. confirmed what I knew; and 3. explained ambiguities and feeling.

The liturgy is so rich in theological terminology. It should be offered in a languague based on the linguistic reality of the parish so communicants understand in the blink of an eye, absorb and feel the terms.

There is a difference between understanding the liturgy through translation by ear and book, and feeling and internalizing the concepts with the heart. This goes on for most in their native language.


Daj Bozhe shchestja a z Bohom.

Christopher

We have always had a mixed English, Ukrainian and Slavonic Liturgy in our Ukrainian Catholic parish. We only have Divine Liturgy once a week, so we don't have the luxury of an "either or" situation for liturgical language...it has to be "both and". This has always been an acceptable situation and converts still roll in, occasionally...both the immigrant Ukrainians and the American converts are satisfied with this situation. We try to make everyone feel welcome...and if you learn "Hospodi Pomilujy", "Podaijy, Hospodi" and "Tebi, Hospodi" you have half the Liturgy down, right?

[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

I hope I haven't posted this before. I also hope it's not off topic. It's a study -- a doctoral thesis, in fact -- of how Orthodox worshippers in one Greek parish feel about the Liturgy. Much of it is devoted to the language issue.

http://www.stnicholasvabeach.org/thesis.htm

Responses are analyzed by gender, age, and whether they are immigrants, converts, etc.

The bottom line was, people overwhelmingly like English, congregational singing, frequent Communion, and an open iconostasion, but they want to keep incense, kneeling, and the spoon.

More provocatively, a sizable percentage wanted two liturgies on Sunday morning, "solea girls," and the priest facing the people.

Not taking sides. :-) Just being the messenger...

(Well, I love my priest, but I will say the back of his vestments is much prettier to look at than his face.)

We use half and half Ukrainian and English.

Alas, not Church Slavonic, except a few responses when I cantor for Vespers/Matins, and for the priest's prayers in a low voice for St. Basil's Liturgy (we don't have the text in Ukrainian).

Lately we have resumed the Gospel reading in Ukrainian as well as English because some newly arrived (i.e. 8 months-4yrs) people identified that they were not understanding it well in English only.

I think now is a good time to ACKNOWLEDGE the loyal and dedicated women and men who attend our churches, and even join our churches, despite the language of the services, even if it is not their native tongue.

I am speaking about people like the two new families we have attracted to our church earlier this year, as well as a couple last year, and a few the year before.

Also a twenty year old former Baptist who was received into our church two years ago.

I see expamples of people coming to my parish and my original parish in another state who do not know Slavonic/Ukrainian, many of whom pick up the responses and teach themselves the Cyrillic alphabet.

Sure this is not a legion of people,just a few people each year; our church is not always busting at the seams. Sure I think more people perhaps would come if services were totally in English all the time, and I feel it is necessary to use more and more English for the eventual survival of the parish.

(Frankly if we were smart, we would be working on Spanish, because projections for my city identify that in forty years Spanish speakers will be in the majority here.)

But I think it is time to recognize the individuals in our parishes and on the Byzantine Forum who strive to follow Christ in an Eastern Christian context despite language differences, and even language barriers.

We have chosen the 'better part' (to paraphrase Pope Leo,) and not the easier part, haven't we?



With Best Wishes;
Stefan-Ivan