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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Dear Andrew,
Ah, you've put your finger on yet another important thing!
Once we start cutting and pasting things pertaining to Ecumenical Councils, we lay open a consideration for the role of a . . .Pope!
At least, that is what I and others believe . . .
Alex
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Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon, This discussion reminded me of a post I did a couple of years ago on the Catholic Information Network's Eastern Board (CINEAST). Here are the points that I made in that post: I have been following the dispute on this board, between the Old Romans and New Romans. ... But again the dialog on this issue has been between the two polar Romes (Rome and Constantinople), while the thoughts of Christians of the other three Patriarchal traditions have not been sought nor even mentioned.
Within our lands both the Roman and Byzantine Church have attempted to impose their liturgical and canonical traditons on us. Because of this
unity has been set back, because both sides think that theirs is the "only" correct Christian Tradition. I and other non-Roman and non-Byzantines feel that all Patriarchal Traditions are valid and should be encouraged and celebrated.
The imperialism of both centers must stop, and a better dialog with your other "Catholic" brothers and sisters, must take place.
Qadeeshat Aloho,
Yuhannon I truely feel that unity will come when the Byzantines and Romans stop trying to "get" one on the other. My brother is 12 years younger than myself, and we grew up with in a traditional Lebanese Family (ie everyone is loud). And I remember a number of times when I would ask (Shout) everyone to be quite so Scotty (my little Brother) could be heard. Our Churches need to hear those little voices. If we look to see the ecumenical relations that are going on between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox, and the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox (for example), most of the disagreements have been overcome. This is not to say that unity is here, but it is to say that these two big sisters can agree on something (and they don't even realize it), then we need open ourselves to that small voice. If we look to our brothers and sisters in the Middle East, we can see the BODY OF CHRIST in action. We are of different confessions, but we realize that we are ALL Christians. We are working towards a real unity. That is why the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church are at the doorstep of becoming one. It is the reason why the Antiochene Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholics were looking to have double Communion. I like all on this list will defend the Body of Christ, but we need to realize that our attitudes can turn us into a cancer on that body. Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon (Stay in Peace You'll) Yuhannon
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Originally posted by Administrator:
I would like to remind a few of our Roman Catholic participants of the rules and policies of [b]The Byzantine Forum that they agreed to as a condition of membership:
[/b] Dear Administrator, I recall at least something similar to this during the registration process, but, where is it to refer to again? If I recall correctly someone posted a link from another forum once and your response was that such was not allowed. Of course, the issue at hand is vastly different, common sense should prevail (like your analogy of going to someone's home); but as for posting a link to another forum, that does not seem like common sense. Tony
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Dear Yuhannon,
Thank you for that incredible witness to real Christian Unity!
Alex
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Tony wrote:
Dear Administrator,
I recall at least something similar to this during the registration process, but, where is it to refer to again?
If I recall correctly someone posted a link from another forum once and your response was that such was not allowed. Of course, the issue at hand is vastly different, common sense should prevail (like your analogy of going to someone's home); but as for posting a link to another forum, that does not seem like common sense.
Tony This is a very reasonable request. At one time the software used for the Forum supported a general announcement that was linked at the top of the home page and in each forum. One of the ongoing announcements contained the Forum rules and regulations. During one of the software upgrades this feature disappeared and I forgot about it. I can still create such announcements for individual forums but not for the entire forum. I can manually post the rules and regulations in a link from the top of the home page and will do so over the weekend. This is an excellent idea. The only other way to view the rules and regulations is to log off and click on �register� to view them. For now, the rules and regulations of the Forum. If anyone would like to comment on them or offer suggestions for improvement now is a great time! Welcome to The Byzantine Forum!The Byzantine Forum welcomes all newcomers to our on-line community. This forum is mainly a community of Byzantine and other Eastern Christians who share a common historical and theological heritage. Roman Catholic and other Western Christians who have come here to learn about how we express our faith in Christ are warmly invited to participate, but we make clear that the primary purpose of this forum is to exchange information and ideas and not to engage in heavy apologetics. If you have come to overload us with apologetic quotes to test how "Catholic" we really are, please don't bother to register - that is simply not how we live out our lives of faith. To truly understand who Eastern Christians are you must "come and see" for yourself by joining us in worship. The warmth and fellowship of our faith experienced in person cannot be described in any book. We extend a warm invitation to everyone to visit one of our parishes and join us in prayer. General Information about The Byzantine ForumConsidering the real-time nature of The Byzantine Forum, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at www.byzcath.org do not actively monitor the contents of The Byzantine Forum and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of www.byzcath.org or any entity associated with The Byzantine Forum. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use The Byzantine Forum to post any material which is unchristian, knowingly false and/or defamatory, accusatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. Although the owners of The Byzantine Forum do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at The Byzantine Forum reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless this BB, Madrona Park, Inc. (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). We at www.byzcath.org also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you. Participants may provide a link to their personal website in their profile but it is not permitted to provide such a link in their display name or signature. Links relevant to the topic under discussion are always permitted provided the link is germane and in good taste. Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate to The Byzantine Forum. Again, please note that The Byzantine Forum is an on-line meeting place for Christians especially focusing on Byzantine Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox). As you discuss your faith please remember that those visiting the Byzantine Forum who do not share our faith in Christ will form an opinion of Byzantine Christianity based upon what YOU post.Please note that we no longer accept registrations from Hotmail accounts! Please use another e-mail address to register.Please also note that each participant is limited to one User Name. Anyone caught using multiple User Names will forfeit all posting privileges.
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Dear Administrator,
Very well said, but I would also like to remind everyone that respect is a two way street.
On the Orthodox side I have experienced many in here who are bottom line rude. When there should be genuine discussion and dialogue even when it challenges our own preconcieved notions.
How about adressing this issue too.
Stephnos I
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Dear Stephanos,
The above rules apply to everybody, Catholic, Orthodox and everything in between and outside those boundaries.
Alex
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Pope Paul and Patriarch Athenagoras are in the process of setting up a dialogue between the Churches. ... The ways of compromise and submission are as impossible today as they always have been. However, there is a way of St. Maximus, of first understanding accurately the other side's faith and then translating it into one's own categories in order to see whether the faith is the same. ... AN ORTHODOX LOOK AT THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT Fr. John S. Romanides, 1964 http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.30.en.saltonstall.htm I like the discussions in which there is an effort to work toward an understanding of the constructs, and catergories of different philosophical traditions. I think it is interesting to work out the "mapping" between the two systems - the domains of similarity and the domains of complementarity. Discussion of this sort advance mutual understanding far better than the "we don't have that category" reaction. From an ecumenical perspective it is important, of course, to identify areas of seeming incompatibility and to probe their gravity: are they apparent or real? Within a communion, however, the latter question is already answered: we have jointly asserted that they are not grave. ISTM then, that discussion on Easten and Western Catholic perspectives on, e.g., purgatory or Original Sin can be very interesting and enriching, provided that they are conducted in manner that does not appear to be challenging that answer.
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Dear djs,
Well, in my recent experience, when it came to discussing Purgatory, I really got burned ...
Alex
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Well, in my recent experience, when it came to discussing Purgatory, I really got burned ... Dear Alex, I presume that you really meant to say: "..., I metaphorically got burned, and payed a heavy toll ..." 
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Dear djs, It is "ouch" either way! Alex
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Dear Alex, Of course, you mean a fallible, concilliar, and ultimately removable type of Pope. In Christ.
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Dear Andrew, Forgive me for correcting the grammar of one so educated and luminous. It is "INfallible when speaking from the Chair of Peter from within the Tradition of the Church, usually expressed by ratifying the decisions of Ecumenical Councils." I know you are very busy and need to write in abbreviated form . . . Alex
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I'm just curious.
Does it not constitute a problem in Orthodoxy when the Orthodox Churches don't even know for certain which councils are ecumenical and which are not? Since ecumenical councils are the only infallible organisms in the Orthodox Churches, and the Churches can't decide on which are ecumenical, doesn't this cause a problem? Perhaps not?
Also, how do the Orthodox Churches (and how did the pre-Schism Church) define which councils are and aren't ecumenical? In the pre-Schism Church, was it by the confirmation of the Pope? By the Emperor confirming it? Since in EO there is neither a Pope nor an Emperor nowadays, even if there was a ecumenical council how would they know if it was truly *E*cumenical, if you know what I mean? Would they have to state within the actual conciliar documents that it's an Ecumenical Council, since that's the only way that pronouncement can be infallible?
ChristTeen287
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Dear ChristTeen,
Actually, world Orthodoxy (apart from the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Catholic Church of the East) does indeed recognize and proclaim 7 Ecumenical Councils.
Consideration of more is simply conjecture and has no official approval.
In the case of all seven, of course, the Emperor was involved (he was the one who first called himself "Vicar of Christ" - a title later appropriated by the Pope of Rome who also appropriated Caesar's old title of "Pontifex Maximus.")
And the entire Church sent its bishops to participate in these Councils.
The latter four are not recognized by the Orientals because of the schism that was created at the time of the Fourth Council recognized by the Byzantine/Roman West.
Only the first two are recognized by the Assyrians since Nestorianism was condemned at the Third and they were implicated with that heresy and so excommunicated.
The signature of the Pope of Rome at these Seven original Councils would only be required to obtain ratification from ALL the major patriarchates and episcopates in the universal Church at the time.
In no sense did the signature of the Pope of Rome independently ratify or "made infallible" the decisions made by the bishops of the universal Church at those Councils (and I am speaking as one from the Byzantine tradition that recognizes those Seven Councils, rather than the first Three or Two).
Alex
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