www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ???Too Many SPXers??

As a RC returning to his Byzantine heritage, I have to admit, I really do not understand why everyone gets so upset with each other over things that are a part of each individual bacground and/or culture. I believe there are a few things WE ALL need to be reminded of:

1. Someone on this forum used the phrase "my church". ALL catholic and orthodox churches belong to the Lord...they are not ours to claim sole proprietorship to.

2. The purpose of weekly Divine Liturgy or the Mass (I'll use both terms since I do not want to cause anyone a cardiac arrest) is to praise and pray to God together as a community to give thanks and to enjoy the benefits of the Holy Eucharist. I am thankful for all the liturgies, whether they are sung or recited. Remember: God is looking at the condition of your heart. We are called to be authentic Christians in a world lacking direction and integrity. If your heart is not right with God, I've got a newsflash for you: it doesn't matter if you're singing or reciting!!!

3. Please remember that the SSPX's are to be loved unconditionally, even if they are NOT loving and treating you the way you would desire, or deserve to be treated. They are sincere Catholics who did not want anything to do with Vatican II due to the modernism and conformity that entered the church. A lot of the way they behave can be attributed to fear and anger over what they see to be a selling out.

4. The BC church I attend in Phoenix had an "Our Lady of Guadalupe" grotto constructed for the RC's who have converted/changed rites. Would it be TOO difficult perhaps, if there is space available on church property, to have an area for the stations of the cross. It certainly is a beautiful devotion, and cannot and will not do anyone harm who faithfully meditates upon it and puts it into practice....Only a suggestion!

I think it is a sad thing when we can't just love each other. There is still obviously some "bad blood" between East and West. My Mom (who is Roman Catholic) had this problem when she married my Father (who is Ukranian Byzantine Catholic). She shared with me the hatred and prejudice that was shown to her by the Eastern rite. I always had trouble grasping this, but after reading some of the things that people get upset over on this forum...well, let's say, you are making it easier to believe.

I offer this info and suggestions in the spirit of Christian love; if you get upset, you need to do some spring house cleaning (or pre-Lent work) on your heart(s).

In His Service,
Walter Metrick
A sinner saved by His Amazing Grace and Divine Mercy

I wish no offense, but I do not necssarily agree with you Walt. Yes the Church and Liturgy are there for everyone, but we have fought for our praxis for too long to have ultra-traditionalist from a different Rite influence our ethos. Stations are a beautiful devotion that are generally out of place in an Eastern Church. We should start supporting Latin trappings when they begin to support ours. IF they can't behave themselves, let them find a church that better suits them. Let's not compromise for the sake a Catholic public relations.

Dmitri

I agree Dimitri. When I was attending the Byzantine Cath Church in San Diego (Rusyn), there were Tridentinists who were insistant on their Western devotions etc. The priest explained to them that this wasn't our tradition and politely indicated that there was a Tridentine Indult Mass for them to go to.
A lot ended up going back to the Tridentine Mass as they found that the LIturgy was not NOT an Eastern version of the Tridentine Mass.

That would actually be closer to your original put down.


Not necessarily, of course. But this conservative inertia also serves as a brake against innovations backed by samost masquerading as scholarship.


And the pervasive presupposition on this forum (not necessarily yours, StuartK) that every development that happened during the stewardship of these heroic figures is inherently inorganic is an outrage.


I won't disagree about this possibility.
But I would like a list of the "arrant nonsense", and the "incredible abuses".
I hope that you're not refering to Sations of the Cross, here.

djs

I think its sad when any Catholic feels "trapped" by any kind of liturgy...and I don't mean to be offensive.

There is one thing I've noticed when I've gone to a BC parish:
Perhaps if they were to welcome any visitors before the Liturgy were to begin, or offer some classes during the weeknights explaining Eastern spirituality and the tones of the liturgy, there would be less RC converts looking to bring their own meditations into the church and "trapping" the other parishoners.

I felt this many times. I need and want to learn the tones so I may participate more fully...but no one is offering.

In His Service,
Walt Metrick

Hmmm. Is this the reason that feast was added to our American "Ruthenian" Byzantine Catholic liturgical calendar? If so, then I will oppose it fiercely and will never be present for its observance.

However, I suspect that it was added for a different reason -- one which I don't claim to understand, but a reason nonetheless I will not oppose since I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Meanwhile, we have no feasts of the Marijapovch, Mukachevo, Krasnyj Brid icons. And the feasts of Blessed Pavel of Prjashiv and Blessed Teodor of Mukachevo passed by without a mention. (Pssst! "We're in America now!" Pass it on!)

Dear Lemko,

I admire your zeal for the veneration of our Saints and Miraculous Icons. Truly I do and I'm with y'a, Big Guy!

But, you know, Guadalupe is also esteemed by Orthodox Christians I know and I've never found anything about it to be offensive to our Eastern Spirituality, especially since it belongs to one of those images "not made with human hands."

Certainly, you can and should stress to the church authorities that our Saints and Icons come first, as they should.

But if your Church has inaugurated the Feast of Guadalupe, I really think that is a positive thing.

It shows you Ruthenian guys have your arms wide open enough to be true to our tradition and yet be open to something found elsewhere.

That makes you better Catholics and better Orthodox.

Or so I say.


Alex

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

UkrainianCatholic wrote:"...Also when in the Liturgy the word "Being" is sung, like "the Trinity one in Being" etc. about 4 of them yell out SUBSTANCE! Rude and not what our texts and translations call for. they have done this at baptisms and funerals..."

I'm shocked and appalled that NOTHING has been done to these people!

IT IS A FEDERAL CRIME TO WILLFUL DISRUPT A RELIGIOUS SERVICE!

I'd call the police and have them arrested!

I'm also surprised that your priest puts up with it.

And they wonder why we're so upset!

mark

Oh, no, Medved - take a few deep breaths and watch that BP ...

...I've noticed a few of these people. Some seem to get terrified when they realize we are so very "foreign" to their experience or their narrow idea of traditional worship (narrow in that it excludes the eastern) and just go elsewhere.

But I hope that some - even a few - of these learn something positive or enriching from us even if they do go elsewhere.

And I hope that even a few of them might find their spiritual life enriched by experiencing a new (to them) traditional form of worship. Granted, its hard if you come in expecting a 1948 version of the Latin Mass and get wigged out by Slavonic.

Perhaps what these folks need to "fix" is not so much "their own church," as you say, but their own view of the various ways "we who have found the true faith" exercise that faith.

You're going to encounter some oddities. A very conservative RC lady comes to my church and attended a session on Byz worship. She asked about the "things" (her word) on the Altar. The deacon explained about Revelation and she stopped him and said - "A ha! So you believe in the things it says in Revelation? Yet another difference between you and the Roman Church. We don't accept that Book." Several of us were kind of dumbfounded - this was news to us, but she seemed sure. The Deacon had to explain to her not only the answer to her question, but why her assertion was, well, wrong. Undaunted, and still believing she was right, she followed up with, "And why don't you use Latin any more if you are so traditional?" OY VEY! Talk about an unenlightened conservative. :-( But perhaps, in his patience (and he has a lot of it), our deacon taught her something. At least, she was very willing to listen to him. And maybe she went back and thought about what he had to say.

Well, Walt, have you inquired about learning the chants? I think Eastern Christians overall tend to be less "outgoing" in terms of teaching members of different Rites. Not that we don't, but they may not see the need beyond our own converts. We seem to stick with our own Eastern practising people in many cases. I sometimes find that amoung the Orthodox as well However, that does not excuse rudeness. Let the unhappy Latins deal with their own problems. We have enough of our own.

Dmitri.

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Annie

you wrote:"...Granted, its hard if you come in expecting a 1948 version of the Latin Mass and get wigged out by Slavonic..."

It's even better when you explain to them that Old Church Slavonic is one of the Official Languages of the church. They nearly faint on that one.

I found it amusing the other day watching the coverage on of the canonization of St. Juan Diego that the commentator on EWTN told the viewers not to be "so upset" with the singing and dancing of the Mexicans; this was their custom and it was TOTALLY permissible "because this isn't the Eucharist celebration". I'll bet they lines to EWTN were jammed!

mark

Dear Medved,

Oops! Someone should write to EWTN or perhaps inform Anthony Dragani (where is he again? ) that EWTN should stay away from all coverage of Ethiopian Catholic services.

They have liturgical dance that IS part of the Eucharistic celebration . . .

We don't want the EWTN commentators really getting into trouble!

Alex

And wonderfully prayerful dance it is with the Ethiopians, with the prayer sticks waving and all...

To reply to Walt's post, what's wrong with some outdoor icon shrines instead of Stations? The monastery at Mt. Tabor has them all over the place, in the woods, along the roads, etc. They sometimes have the small Canon to the Theotokos in one particular outdoor shrine dedicated to her. Valaam is also like that.

We can visit the Romans if we want to share their devotions such as Stations, the Romans can visit us if they want to share our devotions such as Presancitfied, Akathist, Vespers, etc. except in most parishes these are often not offered. We need to be an authentic example of the riches of our tradition to make the "breathing with both lungs" work.

Lemko, you make some good points. I have personally seen a lot of damage done by Latin traditionalists in Byzantine parishes and one group in particular is still trying to make a ruckass by writing to the Ukrainian Catholic bishops with the pretense of warning them about the dangers of "ecumenism" and using Orthodox catechetical material. Luckily the Metropolitan and the other bishops in the USA have dismissed all of these claims. But I have also known some wonderful traditionalist Latins who have been very respectful of our traditions, and even some who have later made great Eastern Catholics!

But, although somewhat off-topic, I must agree with Alex on the Guadalupe issue entirely. I recently lead the Akathist to the Mother of God in English before the pilgrim image of Guadalupe in an outdoor service. I gave a brief explanation of the structure and background of the service beforehand. Veneration to her and her intercession transcends any of our weak and pitiful divisions.

Not one person knelt, all stood for the entire service, and by the end they were even picking up on the relatively simple Pochaiv-style chant we were using. The Mexican community was extremely gracious and thankful, asked many questions about the Eastern Catholics, and even asked us to come to their parish and have the Akathist service again with them. It was a wonderful opportunity to share the riches of our Byzantine tradition and assist in "breathing with both lungs". We have a treasure that needs dusting off and shared with our brethren.

We have non-Slavic feasts of the Mother of God, such as the veneration of the wonder-working icon of Iveron (Greek), the many miraculous interventions of hers we commemorate in Constantinople, etc. We venerate shrouds, mantles, etc. and the Obraz (icon not made by hands). There is simply nothing seriously contrary to the Eastern Christian ethos inherent in veneration of the Guadalupe Mother of God.

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Maybe you'll disagree, but let's be realistic, most eastern chrsitians are traditionalist and the reverence of the liturgies are sometimes atractive to the Tridentine people.

Stating that every Tridentine is a lefebvrist, and that the Tridentine Movement is just a liturgical movement, is a false statement. The Tridentine situation is very complex.

In spite of my natural trouble with many Roman doctrines, I feel that I have to defend the Tridentine people. Let's put ourselves in their shoes. You Ukrainian Catholics know a lot about this, when your Church was destroyed and united with Moscow and you were not allowed to exist.
The Tridentine trouble is somehow, similar. The status of the indult, and the indult itself is humilliating, the Tridentine Mass is not recognized as an other Rite of the Church, only as an underground, tolerated "form" of the Mass, waiting for its extintion.
Ignorance causes most of the problems with the Tridentine parishioners. They think that you have a "better status" and say things like "you have your churches and your bishops, and we are not allowed to have a mass".

As far as I know, only a small percentage of the new orthodox converts (or byzcath) from Roman Catholicism, left it because of liturgical reasons(many complain about the liturgical abuses, but as a secondary thing).

What amazes me is that, for example, when the AOC installed the "Western Rite Vicariate", it was thought that it would atract some romcaths in distress. The AOC has both, the Novus Ordo (named after St Tykhon) and the Tridentine Mass (named after St Gregory, I'd better call it the Liturgy of St Pius V, hehe).

At the beggining both liturgies were used in different parishes, but recently Metropolitan A. Bashir himself, after severe critical statements and the request of Bishops of other jurisdictions, recommended to suspend the use of the Tykhon Liturgy , whick was clearly deficient.
So, the use of the "Tridentine" mass became the official in most western rite parishes, and the results have been quite confusing. Although in theory it is a Tridentine mass, it looks, sounds and tastes like the New Mass (the liturgy is in English, the anthems are like those used in Episcopalian and Catholic parishes, the preachers sound like Evangelicals, etc), they have several "byzantinizations" and use an Anglican Calendar. As a result of the confussion during the Communion they had introduced artificial practices (such as crossing hands and expect for the blessing of the priest).
Their original intention of atracting Tridentines has failed.

The other societies (like the one of Saint Peter) are also facing troubles, the superior was fired because he wanted to forbide his priests to celebrate in the New Mass and in Australia for example, they were forced to introduce the New Calendar (the one that supresses the fests of the Saints).

I think that it's a great act of compassion and christian love to receive the Tridentines in your parishes.

Remie, the main problem the Fraternity of St. Peter has now is that they don't have enough physical space for all of the seminarians who want to enter that order in their seminary in Lincoln, Nebraska. They have a waiting list for prospective seminarians now. I think a lot of other seminaries would give much to have the same problem. The spinoff traditional Latin Benedictine, Franciscan and Carmelite communities in communion with Rome are also doing very well in terms of vocations.

If you read "Ecclesia Dei" it would be very apparent that the Tridentine Rite is not an "underground rite" as you put it but an accepted rite of the Church which is to be extended to those faithful feeling drawn to it. I do not disagree, however, that all bishops at least in North America have not fully implemented this as yet.

I would be careful with reading SSPX polemic with regards to the "firing" of the superior of the FSSP, whatever. The constitution of the FSSP mandates that they use a 1962 or previous form of the Roman Rite. The current Superior General of the FSSP (Fr. Arnaud Devillers) was also ordained to the priesthood by Archbishop Lefebvre but was reconciled to the Church in 1989. I will not question his orthodoxy as he is a good friend of mine. I will applaud his tireless efforts in the US to establish the FSSP from one diocese to over 20 in less than ten years, in both the US and Canada.

Many people do not seem to remember this clause from Sacrosanctum Concilium, the document on the Liturgy from Vatican II: "The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy; therefore...it should be given pride of place in liturgical services". Yes, believe it or not, that is part of an official Vatican II document. It's not the Council that's the problem.

Getting back to the subject, as Eastern Catholic we expect the same respect for our traditions and customs in our parishes as they would in theirs, that's fair enough.