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#89356 10/11/04 03:09 AM
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Dear Ghazar,

Please forgive me if I offended you. My point was not to pick out any one person in particular. While I only quoted one side of the argument, I think that what I said could equally apply to those who seek to justify the practice on the basis of canons alone. It was the way the argument was framed that I was objecting to. Canons are only one small part of our entire tradition. Canons have a context behind them--to justify or condemn any practice on the basis of canons is a tenuous thing. Canons, like the Scripture, can be read and put together piece-meal in such a way as to justify almost anything. It is the lived Tradition of the Church that we look to as the interpretation and application of the canons. The fact that this is a lived tradition of the church applied universally in the Church until very recently, with only a few, reasoned exceptions, is the strongest argument. The fact that there is Biblical and canonical evidence to back it up is good and helpful, but it is not the sine qua non.

Again, forgive me if you felt I was singling you out.

As for the calendar, I think "old-calendarist" is different from "one who follows the old calendar". "Old-calendarist" refers to those who believe those who follow the new calendar to be heretics. They are certainly in the minority. Those who follow the old calendar, on the other hand, are in the majority. I've even heard patriarchal Russian Orthodox (who follow the old calendar) refer to certain schismatics as "old-calendarist". It's all in the "ist"!

Justin

#89357 10/11/04 08:21 PM
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Justin?

HUH?? re: calendar eek
Please...don't invent labels. The only people who go around denouncing all those on the New Calendar are not properly Orthodox, BUT schismatics.

In nearly each Orthodox jurisdiction, part of that jurisdiction is Old Calendar, and, if asked, refer to themelves as 'Old-Calendarists'. No one of my aquaintence has ever said, "I am one who follows the Old Calendar". biggrin

Gaudior, who knows MANY Old Calendarists, NONE of whom think those on the New Calendar are heretics.

#89358 10/11/04 08:48 PM
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Sorry Gaudior, I guess I just never heard it said that way. I know of some OCA parishes and monastery that use the old calendar, but would not refer to themselves as old-calendarist. In the Orthodox circles I've had contact with, old calendarist was reserved for the schismatic groups who have condemned "new calendarists" as heretics, but not used with regards to the canonical jurisdictions that use the old calendar. Likewise, I've never heard anyone refer to Athonite monasteries as old calendarist, with the exception of the zealots. I don't think there is any "official" usage, this is just the way I've seen it in the mainly GOA and OCA parishes I've had a lot of contact with--being GOA myself for about 10 months now.

#89359 10/11/04 09:08 PM
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Justin, both jurisdictions you have named are predominantly New Calendar. In predominantly Old Calendar jurisdictions, the term is often used. You mentioned the little known fact that both the OCA and the GOA have canonical Old Calendar churches in their jurisdiction. However, many IN THOSE VERY SAME JURISDICTIONS do NOT know this, and look at the Old Calendarists as schismatic.

However, for example, both the UGCC and the UOC (EP) have both New and Old Calendarist Churches, with the majority being Old Calendar, and there, honestly, the calendar is what you are, not a new convert's cause for a crusade against those who do not follow it. Education is the key, here.

Gaudior, returning you to your regularly scheduled thread on ALTAR GIRLS, not the Calendar

#89360 10/12/04 02:06 AM
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#89361 10/12/04 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by DAVIDinVA:
This is beyond altar girls:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100010_09/10/2004_48208
Yes it is. I am hoping all this doesn't cause a split in Orthodoxy. Since there are so many national churches and no Pope-like leader, I think Orthodoxy can tend to splinter into smaller jurisdictions more easily than Catholicism.

#89362 10/12/04 02:31 AM
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Meanwhile, the Hierarchs of the Church of Greece, a body made up of 62 bishops, voted against allowing Archbishop Christodoulos to meet with the pope, for the time being.
62 Heirarchs? That country is too small for that many. Surely they are not all bishops IN Greece.

#89363 10/12/04 02:45 AM
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"62 Heirarchs? That country is too small for that many. Surely they are not all bishops IN Greece."

Indeed they are. In fact I count 78 diocese on this page:

http://www.ecclesia.gr/English/EnDioceses/EnDioceses.html

The Orthodox Churches tend to have much smaller dioceses than their Catholic counterparts.

Greece's population is aroumd 10 million and 98% are Orthodox.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#89364 10/12/04 04:30 PM
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There are 34 Orthodox bishops (last time I counted) in America for about "1-5 million" (depending on how you count!) people, so that doesn't seem so strange to have 78 bishops for 10-11 million.

Anastasios

#89365 10/12/04 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Gaudior:
Justin?

HUH?? re: calendar eek
Please...don't invent labels. The only people who go around denouncing all those on the New Calendar are not properly Orthodox, BUT schismatics.
And what of the New Calendarists who denounce the New Calendar as uncanonical and long for a return to the Old Calendar?

Who are the schismatics? The people who held to the patristic calendar and Traditional Orthodoxy (who were served by hieromonks from Mt Athos until 3 New Calendar bishops repented and returned to the Patristic Calendar in 1935), or the people who switched the calendar and instituted ecumenism?

I am not personally attacking you. You are just using the terms that you were taught, such as "schismatic" and "uncanonical". However, I want to encourage you and everyone else who uses these terms to think about the implications of them and what it all actually means. wink

Anastasios

#89366 10/12/04 04:47 PM
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The calendar disputes are interesting, especially since we don't have a clue as to when events celebrated by many calendar dates actually occurred. I wonder if the whole thing is just something to argue about by people who would argue about anything.

#89367 10/12/04 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
The calendar disputes are interesting, especially since we don't have a clue as to when events celebrated by many calendar dates actually occurred. I wonder if the whole thing is just something to argue about by people who would argue about anything.
Watches to see how long before Charles is skewered from both directions for that thought biggrin

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#89368 10/12/04 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
The calendar disputes are interesting, especially since we don't have a clue as to when events celebrated by many calendar dates actually occurred. I wonder if the whole thing is just something to argue about by people who would argue about anything.
Yes- interesting that an article about the Church of Greece possibly ordaining women sparks a disscussion of- the calendar!

#89369 10/12/04 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
[b] The calendar disputes are interesting, especially since we don't have a clue as to when events celebrated by many calendar dates actually occurred. I wonder if the whole thing is just something to argue about by people who would argue about anything.
Watches to see how long before Charles is skewered from both directions for that thought biggrin

Many years,

Neil [/b]
You know, historians and theologians are now saying Christ was born in 6 B.C. How could we know the accuracy of traditional dates? What if both the new and the old calendar are inaccurate?

#89370 10/12/04 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
How could we know the accuracy of traditional dates? What if both the new and the old calendar are inaccurate?
Charles,

Exactly. I am taking no stand on this until the Newer Calendrists and the Oldest Calendrists come out with their newer and oldest improved editions biggrin .

Many years

Neil, wondering just how long those years should be anyway confused


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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