www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization secular orders

I still have a concern that the differences between east and west regarding monasticism are at the core small "t" tradition differences, as opposed to Holy Tradition that is necessary for salvation. But, I can see how it is necessary to draw lines in the sand in order to reclaim what has been lost due to latinization. So, I don't actually disagree with the prevalent positions presented here, but want to be sure they are kept in perspective with regard to salvation itself. I am sure that faithful Latins would disagree with eastern perceptions of their monastic priorities, too.

Dear Jim,

The differences are also reflected in all other aspects of liturgical-ecclesial life between West and East.

These are "cultural" differences and are important insofar as they make Tradition more understandable through the various prisms of cultural perspectives and experience.

This also came up in our discussion of the Filioque where it was mentioned that while it shouldn't be in the Creed, could it not, nevertheless, be used as a Latin view since it was so popular in the Latin West?

And, yes, of course.

Eastern monasticism and contemplation is less given to the discursive focus of the West. This doesn't mean the West is any less open to mysticism than the East, only that it takes a different path to arrive there.

Alex

Good questions, V!

You see, I would argue that we of the Franciscan ilk are following a saint whose entire message was live a life of simple penance in the imitation of Christ. There isn't much intellectualizing among us in our Franciscan hats. I'm a lawyer, an economist, was a theology student, and all that - but doggone it, Francis' message on how to live a Christian life speaks to me after all these centuries. He lived in a time of terrible crisis in the Roman church and his call to go out and embrace lepers, encourage peace, and live lives of simple penance is still relevant today. We never put the saint - the humble servant - above the master.

But don't be confused: We who are secular Franciscans got here through a long process of discernment not unlike that the monastics go through. We aren't a club with a religious identity - we're beyond the KOC selling Christmas trees and raffle tickets, or the ladies' guild making pirohi. We are a true religious community. Yes, we are called to serve in our parishes and our communities - but our mission is really beyond that. We do work that is specific to our own talents and education within and without the Franciscan community. For example, my fellow Franciscans in this area serve as priests, deacons, as cooks and counselors in a local homeless shelter, as pro bono lawyers, etc. - this is in addition to the traditions of saying daily Offices and trying our best to say simple in the secular world we all must serve in. The community gives us the strength to do things that we might just talk about doing and not actually get around to doing on our own.

We do have the larger community of our parishes, and the larger community of Catholic churches or beyond that of apostolic Christianity (or Christianity generally), but I figure even the apostles themselves worked in smaller communities among their close friends. Orders and communities are like that.

Btw, I was amused by the comment about pirohi making. I'm not a terrific chef. But I can make pirohi and halupki and a few other things that are pretty good (or so my husband lies and tells me). So I decided to help with halupki making for a church event. There were several men and women there. But I noticed there weren't any even close to my age. I was the youngest one by at least 20 years. Wuzzup with that? Granted, I took the day off from work. (I'd rather make halupki.) But now I'm worried: Who is going to be making the halupki for us all in 10-20 years? Oy!

Wow, did I get off topic..... :-)

Dear Annie,

Yes, you make excellent points!

Our Lord Jesus lives in His saints by the Holy Spirit and in knowing His saints, we are led into deeper intimacy with Jesus.

There was nothing about St Francis that was "Francis" alone.

Everything about him witnessed to the Lord Jesus and His Presence in His servant.

Francis would be quite dramatic in licking his lips whenever he pronounced the Name of Jesus - to capture the spiritual honey, he said, that burst forth each time we said it with faith, hope and love.

Incarnational religion, which is true Christianity, is about God coming to us through the Humanity of our Lord Jesus by the Virgin Mary, and also through the preaching and prayers of the Apostles, Martyrs, etc. etc.

To venerate a saint is to go to Jesus directly through him or her.

Did not Christ say that whatsoever we did to the least of His brothers, that we do unto Him?

And that isn't just symbolic. He truly does live in His Saints, His poor and His needy.

We have no need to be constantly looking up at the clouds to see Jesus.

Alex

Dear V,

Oops! lol, sorry there V,
anyway, what I was going to say is that sure, we can appreaciate the charisms of the various mothers and fathers of the church. What I was saying is that: 1) Such formal Orders have no place in the eastern church 2) that to belong to these orders, especially in the eastern church, runs the risk of losing sight of the big picture for the sake of the smaller one, 3) we all have a vocation to ministry of some sort as St. Paul indicates when he says we all are a part of the body of Christ. We all share in the priesthood of Christ. We all have the charisms of every saint by virtue of the sacraments of our christian initiation. The spirit gives us what we need for our particular vocation. So, just be careful when you identify with these third orders that you are not cutting off your spiritual nose to spite your face.
Lastly, I must say that there is NO similarity to the minor orders and secular 3rd orders. These are ministerial orders that are received through ordination. Very different.

In peace,
Athanasius