www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization EC's Growing or Shrinking?

Francis,

"Why do you say the original reported figures are inaccurate? If the same methodology is used in 1990 and 2003, why is one considered inaccurate and the other not? I'm not disputing your claim - I just don't understand it."

We were making up our numbers, there was no accurate census taken until Metropolitan Judson demanded one. Again I am not disputing we have lost members but the loss is hardly as dramatic as the number comparison appears because the early numbers were not real.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon Lance,

I'm actually glad to hear that, because I wondered why the Ruthenians dropped so much more than other Churches. As you say, though, it is still dropping.

The data says:

1990: 268,161
1995: 192,537
2000: 142,820
2002: 113,542
2003: 100,688

In what year did the numbers start being accurate?

Tony,

The link is at the beginning of this thread. Here is an overview:

"Quick Question

How many Eastern Orthodox
are there in the USA?


The quick answer: Far less than usually reported.

The longer answer: According to a recent study of Orthodoxy in the United States, the real membership (number of adult adherents and their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be estimated at about 1,200,000 persons. This figure is considerably less than the commonly accepted estimations, which range as high as over four million.

The greatest disproportions between "claimed" and actual memberships were found in the two largest Orthodox jurisdictions:

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (typically claimed 1,954,500* members versus 440,000 actual adherents)

Orthodox Church in America (1,000,000* versus 115,000 actual adherents)

* membership figures are from the Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches, National Council of Churches, 2000.

The most likely reason for this discrepancy is the common practice of equating Church membership with the total number of representatives of a corresponding ethnic group including second and third American generations of the original immigrants, independent of these persons actual relationship to the Orthodox Church.

See table below for additional data.

A Troubled Identity

The research also found that Orthodox Churches are struggling with the issue of their changing nature and mission in American. Beginning in the 1970�s, fundamental changes took place in the demographics of the Orthodox jurisdictions. These changes included the increasing proportion of the American-born members and of converts who came to the Orthodoxy mainly through the inter-Christian marriages, the new developments in religious education and liturgical life, and
the grassroots movements encouraging greater Orthodox unity for the sake of mission
These changes have essentially altered the standing of the Orthodox Churches on the contemporary American religious scene. Religious faith and ethnic identity, once seen as inseparable, are increasingly less important for the socially-mobile, geographically-dispersed, English speaking second, third and fourth generations of Orthodox in America. Nor is this an important consideration for the ever-increasing number of Orthodox converts raised in other religious traditions. Nevertheless, at the beginning of a new millennium, the jurisdictional distinctiveness still does remain a basic characteristic of Orthodox Christianity in the USA.

Current Sources of Growth in US Orthodox Churches

There are three possible demographic sources of growth: immigration, the offspring of church members, and Anglo-American converts. In nearly all of the Orthodox jurisdictions, new immigrants are roughly as important for membership growth as are the children of existing members, and in many cases immigration is still the major source of church growth. With the offspring members there is the added factors of the natural desire to assimilate into the dominant American culture and drift away from the language, customs and to a large extent from the Orthodox faith of their parents.

The Project

This project is a study by Alexei D. Krindatch (Institute of Geography, Moscow, Russia) of 22 major Orthodox (Eastern Christian) Churches in the USA with a total membership of 1,200,000 adherents gathered in 2,400 local parishes.

The research was sponsored by "Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies" as a part of the nationwide "Religious Congregations Membership Study: 2000." The data were obtained directly from the headquarters (diocesan offices) of Orthodox Churches in North America by personal visits there and by interviewing of the church's leaders � the bishops or the chancellors."

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Deacon Lance,

I am still curious where the report got those figures. I had never read/heard numbers that high that I recall. Obviously they are not made up, meaning the report got them from the source they cite but I wonder where the source they cite got them from.

Tony

Catholic parishes (at least on the Latin side) are sticklers at record keeping (and tracking) and membership in a given parish should be as accurate as it should be when it is forwarded to the diocesan "central" office.

It is fairly simple: the bottom line reflects the current membership plus transfers "to," conversions (adults and children), and infant baptisms LESS deceased and transfer "from."

The need and importance of accurate numbers should be obvious to would-be parish and diocesan administrators.

Amado

Francis,

Unless, of course, you disagree that this doesn't accurately represent my experience.

When real answers are unavailable, we sometimes have to discuss anecdotal evidence and then test the data to determine if the anecdotal evidence is a real factor or an anomaly.

I'm not arguing that this is THE problem in EVERY parish. I believe, from my experience, that it is A problem in SOME parishes (which is why I said it was "Part of the problem . . .", not "The problem. . .").

And it doesn't take 80% of RCs in an RC parish to flood EC parishes. It takes disaffected RCs, NOT in an RC parish, but in an EC parish. The fact that most RCs in the RC church don't know about the church across the street doesn't remove the possibility that the church across the street is in the situation I described.

There are many other problems, of course, including a sort of identity crisis for some ECs, an apparent lack of effective, organized evangelization, a rapidly aging membership, and a cash flow problem (who doesn't have cash flow problems?). Some of these problems, I believe, were identified using anecdotal evidence as well.

I believe that all of these issues, including the one from my experience, at the very least merit discussion.

Of course I should have been discussing this in a "why is it" discussion instead of "is it" discussion.

My experience has been that converts are not retained long and that ECs have tried to be RC for so long, some of the cradlers just went full hog RC. In other words, I'm taking it as axiomatic that the EC churches are shrinking. This thread is asking, "Is it?"

I'll shut up now.

Dear Tony:

If I recall it right, it was here at BYZCATH that the membership figures for the Orthodox in the U.S., cited by Fr. Deacon Lance, was referenced by Orthoman to show the "increase" in Orthodox membership, particularly with respect to the OCA. I think he pegged the total membership at around 3 million nationwide, with OCA at around 1.5 million.

To which I volunteered that the Latin Archdiocese of Chicago alone had (at that time) around 2.2 million.

(He then invited me to join the OCA! I politely declined. )

Amado

Amado write:

[If I recall it right, it was here at BYZCATH that the membership figures for the Orthodox in the U.S., cited by Fr. Deacon Lance, was referenced by Orthoman to show the "increase" in Orthodox membership, particularly with respect to the OCA. I think he pegged the total membership at around 3 million nationwide, with OCA at around 1.5 million.

To which I volunteered that the Latin Archdiocese of Chicago alone had (at that time) around 2.2 million.]

Amado, can you possibily show this senile old OrthoMan when I did what you are saying I did? Only statistics Fr Deacon Lance and I hassled over were regarding the statistics in Ukraine which I more than proved did not balance. This was on another discussion group.

[(He then invited me to join the OCA! I politely declined. )]

I am assuming that wink indicates you just kidding since I know I'm not that senile!

Awaiting your response and apology.

OrthoMan

Dear Friends,

Using data on US Eastern Catholic Churches provided by francis I will try to answer my original question:

Are Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA, growing or shrinking?

Five ECCs are steady in population, Armenian, Syrian, Maronite, Melkite and Romanian from years 1990 to 2003.
One ECC is increasing in population, Chaldean from years 1990 to 2003.
Two ECCs are declining in population, Ukrainian and Ruthenian from years 1990 to 2003.

As a whole Eastern Catholics in the US have decreased by about 200,000 between 1990 and 2003. A loss of roughly half of the US ECC population!

I sincerely hope got bad data for my analysis. From here it looks like US Eastern Catholics are bleeding on the operating table.

Paul

I am a personally a subtract one from the byzantine ruthenians and a plust one for the antiochian Orthodox.

My moms ruthenian catholic congregation has gotten alot smaller when I visited it.

In Christ
Nektarios

Dear Nektarios,

I don't want to know why you left the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. It's better to remain silent than to say something negative.

Personally, I'm interested in is what attracted you to the Antiochian Orthodox Church?

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus,

Paul

Dear Friends:

To Bob (OrthoMan), and to this Board, I offer my sincere apologies, for wrongly attributing to him (1) a post made by another person and (2) an exchange of pleasantries which occurred in connection therewith.

Memory lapses afflict me once in a while, due perhaps to old age (hey, Bob, I have also reached my senior moment like you! ) and undue reliance on my "photographic" memory which, clearly, I have discovered to be non-existent at all.

My reference point in the current thread happened slightly over 2 years ago in April 2002.

On (1), the post was made by Anastasios under the topic "Orthodox stat in U.S.", thus:

To which I replied:

During these exchanges between Anastasios and me, OrthodoxyOrDeath, or OOD to some of us here (and I think OOD is "Bob" also?), interjected, which brings us to (2):

I "declined" OOD's invitation. OrthoMan was nowhere in these conversations! (Bob, where were you? )

The thread is still available at:

https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001232

Anticipating OrthoMan's acceptance of my sincere apologies.

Amado

[Anticipating OrthoMan's acceptance of my sincere apologies.]

Apology accepted by one admitted 'old man' from another admitted 'old man'!

OrthoMan

Dear OrthoMan:

Thanks, you just made my day!

Now, going back to Paul's initial query . . .?

Amado

Cizinec - my apologies if it appeared that I was questioning your personal experience. Of course I cannot do that. I was trying to note that I personally doubt that your example is the case on a large scale. But my reasons for thinking that are strictly from my personal experience as well.