www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization EC's Growing or Shrinking?

quote by Amadeus:

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Memory lapses afflict me once in a while.

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Dear Amadeus,

I can't remember how many memory losses I've had. I forget to remember.

Maybe that's why I can't spel. Perhaps our venerable Administrator will add a spell checker to the forum--no, I've asked for too much.

Christ is our peace,

Paul

Dear Paul:

My family left the Melkite Church in 1996 along with several other parishioners. The primary reasons were the latinizations especially the reduced fast. Our previous Melkite parish officially started the fast on Dec. 10 instead of Nov. 15. The Latins were accusing us of being holier than the Pope because we fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, while the Orthodox accused us of not following our Byzantine traditions. We were caught between two worlds.

The flow continues from the English speaking Melkites to the Antiochians for this very reason. However, many of the FOB (Fresh off the boat) Arabic Antiochians go to the Melkite church where they have the full Arabic Divine Liturgy which they consider "fully Orthodox". So the balance remains the same to this day. You lose some and you gain some.

Finally, you must realize that in the Middle East there is some intercommunion due to the Muslim rule which doesn't allow construction of new churches -- so the parishes must share the church between the Melkites and the Antiochians. Therefore many Arabic Antiochians attend the Melkite Churches here in American without batting an eyelash, and they consider it quite Orthodox.

Hope this helps. I'm trying hard not to stir the pot and inflame things. It's a cultural thing more than a religious difference.

Elizabeth Maria

WE have a church that is about half and half...only it is Melkite and Greek Orthodox, with a lot of everyone else splashed in there.

Oh well we all make a very joyful noise unto the Lord!

Pani Rose

I don't know if EC's are growing or shrinking. In my parish we had people from all backgrounds: 2 Poles, an African-American couple (who brought their African-American friends), a former Methodist, and others. Yesterday, the Archbishop of the Archeparchy closed our parish and 2 others in the City of Philadelphia. So I would say we are shrinking.

Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Thank you for your post. I don't interpret it as inflammatory in any way.

I wouldn't pay attention to what Latins say (Except me )
My Mother-in-law still abstains from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays during Lent.

I recall Archbishop Tawil's speech to Melkites, "The courage to be ourselves." That's a good lesson for all Christians.

This is a little off this thread, but maybe someone can confirm or deny this statement:

A Byzantine Catholic priest told me that the local Melkites (they have no local parish) would rather attend a Roman Church than a Byzantine Church. I was very surprised by his statement.

Is this a cultural thing too? I too am not trying to cause trouble, but if it's true, this behavior troubles me.

Sincerely in Christ and the Theotokos,

Any comments?

Paul

That's fascinating. I am curious about this accusing. Was it a formal complaint from neighboring priests or bishops, banter from friends, or what?

Paul,

I'm intrigued. If memory serves me correctly, there was a short-lived period in the early 70's when the Melkite community in NM was briefly served by an older Melkite priest who was retired there - (his name escapes me at the moment and I may be confusing NM with St John of the Desert, our parish in AZ).

It's hard to know the why of this. It's about an hour travel between Albuquerque and Santa Fe, I believe, and there is an Antiochan Orthodox Church (Holy Trinity) in Santa Fe. I'd have expected more to head that way if they weren't comfortable with the Slav Tradition at Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

Your Deacon came from El Segundo - the Russian parish/Melkite mission - as I remember. Does he have any insights?

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

if you are refering to Father Deacon Gerald Sondergard, he immediately came from the Russian Catholic Center in San Francisco to OLPH.

Deacon John,

Thanks for correcting my misperception; I knew Deacon Gerald came from one of the Russian parishes - and when in doubt, always claim a Melkite connection - we have to do these things to enhance our place among our Byzantine brothers and sisters (at least until there's another Vatican Council for our Patriatrch to stand up and be counted at), since we are neither the biggest nor a national Church and haven't a common flag to wave

Many years,

Neil

Rose,

I'm surprised (but happy) to hear that our parish in Birmingham has a large Greek Orthodox presence. I know there's a Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Birmingham and believe there are several other GO churches in the area. Is there a particular reason why we've attracted a contingent of our Greek brothers and sisters?

{Other than, of course, Deacon Stan's chanting, Father Frank's homilies, and your personal charm and spiritual witness ).

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

As for the Melkite connection, I if recall, Fr Deacon Gerald was ordained to the diaconate by Bishop Nicholas (Samra)

Deacon John,

Thanks. I believe you're correct, that he was ordained by Bishop Nick. That might be from whence I made a connection.

Many years,

Neil

Elizabeth,

I'm curious what other latinizations you encountered, other than the shortened Philip's Fast (which I believe is also in use by the Ruthenians and Ukrainians in the US)?

It's interesting that you see an ongoing flow from the Melkite to the Antiochian Church, since I don't believe that phenomenon is as true here on the East Coast (nor the reverse that you described with respect to the newly immigrated).

Many years,

Neil

Elizabeth,

Abbreviation is just that abbreviation not Latinization. The Nativity fast varies greatly among the Churches. The Romans start Advent four Sundays before Christmas, but Ambrosians and Mozarabics six. We start the day after St. Phillip's Feast but the other Eastern Churches start at different times, some shorter than ours.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Hey,

Paul asked?
A Byzantine Catholic priest told me that the local Melkites (they have no local parish) would rather attend a Roman Church than a Byzantine Church. I was very surprised by his statement.

Melkites are a very ethenic and strongly family oriented people. It is very important to them to be at church together. So that particular inclination may occur when there are family members already established in a certain Roman Church. Also, if the children have atteneded Roman Catholic Schools they will often become Latinized and will not desire to spend the time necessary to learn the differences in the Liturgies or to stay the difference in time between the Mass and Divine Liturgy. My opinion is you would find them more likely to attend an Antiocheian or Greek Orthodox Church, especially since they see themselves as a bridge to the Antiocheans.

Neil wrote:
I'm surprised (but happy) to hear that our parish in Birmingham has a large Greek Orthodox presence. I know there's a Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Birmingham and believe there are several other GO churches in the area. Is there a particular reason why we've attracted a contingent of our Greek brothers and sisters?

Your words were very kind Neil. Well the churches are very intermarried for one thing, I mean many of the children have married from the other church. Imazingly enough, though the Melkites and Marionites are only a few blocks apart, and the families close there are not as many marriages from these churches, combining the churches.

However, most of them came years ago. There was an apparent riff at the Greek Orthodox Church of some sort. They spent considerable time speaking with the preist that was at St. Georges at the time, and he welcomed them to the church. So our church is not only about half Catholic and half Orthodox, it is also about half Lebonese and half Palanstenian. Both are very delightful people, a very ancient people with wonderful traditions and lots of love to share. Then you splash in all of us Europeans, it makes for a lively church.

It has been interesting learning and working with both of our traditions the Ruthenian and the Melkite. With the Ruthenians we carry forth so many of the traditions that Fr. Deacon Stan had learned from his grandmother in the Polish National Catholic Church, which has been wonderful. All of this has definately increased our understanding of our faith. Along with the splash of our Roman friends, we can truly say since returning to Church 24 years ago, life has never been boring!

One last thought is that our church is definately not shrinking. Just in births alone we are exploding. When you add all of the converts coming in from everywhere, well the south is looking up

Pani Rose