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Dear Mark,

Thank you for your enlightening and insightful post!

I like yours better than Dr. John's

You've summarized a great deal of social scientific literature into a few short sentences.

I agree that our Byzantine cultural and spiritual heritage gives us a strong identity and source of values that are lacking in the mainstream consumer society.

We need to capitalize on that society's weakness, to be sure.

Alex

I can can sense Mark's frustration at elements of our society that seem to be at odds with Christian values in general and Byzantine values in particular.

In deference to Alex's social science perspective, I see the question: "why be a Byzantine when you can be a Roman Catholic".

The answer is: the VALUES of the worshipping community make it distinctive; its liturgical prayers (and fasts and feasts and vestments and icons and singing everything and ....) are external manifestations of what the values are and are meant to buttress among the community members those very same values.

For me, the primary Byzantine characteristic is the community's sense of transcendence. We aren't buddy-buddy with Jesus and Mary and the saints. We relate to them as humans, but we are also aware that they have a linkage to the "Divine" reality that we don't have. Thus, our worship reflects these beliefs in our veneration of icons, our honoring them with candles, flowers and incense, and our ability to also call upon the human characteristics: God is "father", Jesus is "son", Mary is "mother", John Chrysostom is "father", etc.

The older RC rituals had a similar sense of transcendence, but with a kind of strong sense of 'structured organization'. The Western "reformers" refocused the liturgical reality on the community, turning the worship service into more of a community meeting accompanied by prayer.

It is the sense of transcendence that makes our people(s) happy with the worshipping church community. And that also can draw others near.

However, and this is a big HOWEVER, there are some folks who are NOT attracted to this sense of transcendence and for some reason (which is obscure to me) prefer to express their religiosity in hand-clapping, jump-up-for-Jesus singing, l-o-n-g quasi-interactive sermons, and 'kiss' of peace handshakes, all of which serve to make the worship experience less transcendental and more focused on the 'belonging to the group' sense of "church".

It is the awareness of this distinction that allows the Episcopalians to have all sorts of parishes that do everything from Solemn High (get out the oxygen) Pontifical Mass to the stark puritan-like protestant service to the folksy liturgies in inner-city and some suburban churches.

Byzantines keep the "in the church" stuff transcendental, and as Sharon has pointed out elsewhere, we do the community-thing through men's club, ladies guild, BCY, etc. (with greater or lesser degrees of success).

I think the "mainstream" vs. "non-mainstream" is the wrong question, sort of like a red herring that distracts from the true issue. Why? Because one can be totally mainstream American, with an SUV, TV, internet, the Budweiser-Marlboro-McDonalds lifestyle and still be a very good Christian. Are there values out there that are inconsistent with what we consider Christian values? Sure. And there always have been -- no exceptions. Why? Because sin is a reality in human life.

So, when I focus on "love of God and love of one's neighbor", I believe that I've arrived at the very core of the question. If the church (of whatever flavor) is filled with God-loving and people-loving folks who share their last dime with you, then you've found the pearl of great price. If that church has a clear understanding of the realities of "this side" and "the other side" (transcendence), then its values will keep it strong.

I believe that the Eastern church communities that employ liturgical transcendence do the best job of mediating the message. This is not to condemn the 'holy rollers' or 'guitar Mass' folks at all. But I think that there is something missing in their lives that could be enhanced with a little dose of Eastern spirituality.

It's not whether you have icons or not (or even how many :-)), but what they do for you in underpinning your daily life. I recall that I once purchased a CD of Russian liturgical music done by some Soviet conservatory chorus. They hit every note perfectly. I listened to it once and then put it on the shelf. There was something missing: the sense of transcendence that comes from loving God and being a part of a praying community.

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

This post of yours really is worth its weight in gold!

I take back what I said above

Alex