www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Orthodoxy on Our Lady's Conception

Dear Marshall,

Actually, whatever modern Orthodox theologians say, the fact is that both Our Lady and St John the Baptist were sanctified at their respective Conceptions - otherwise their ancient feasts of their Conceptions would never have been celebrated, as only the feasts of saints may be honoured.

The liturgical services here also celebrate this fact.

This does not preclude that Our Lady grew in the Spirit throughout Her Life, as at the Annunciation.

Our Lady died and therefore shared in the lot of humanity.

But, the liturgical services and tradition is clear, she did not suffer concupiscence or feel any pain when she gave birth to Christ.

She did, however, feel great pain in Her Womb, as the services sing, at the Foot of the Cross.

Alex

The Oktoechos for Tone One (Nassar, Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese, p.138) reads:
"Let us praise Mary the Virgin, the glory of the whole world, branching from human seed and the mother of the Master,..."

I think that this sums up the majority Orthodox opinion that really differentiates it from Catholicism. The difference is more basic than just origianl stain, or guilt or whatever. To the rediscovered Orthodox Apophatic Theology, humankind is basically GOOD BUT WEAK. If you look at the "human seed" that we commemorate was teh Ancestors of the LORD, they include Rahab the Harlot, Leah (who was undesired, not her sister Rachel who was beautiful) and her son Judah (who sold his brother into Egyptian), and slavery, and indeed David and Bathsheba (not the God loving Abigail), but adultery and murder, through their many women loving son Solomon.

Mary, born of seed, (just like all of us) voluntairily said yes when she could have said no. The inherent goodness in her overcame her human weakness, and thus all generations shall call her blessed. To Orthodox Theology, Catholics need an infallible and universal Pope to tell them that they are absolved. Traditional Catholic Theology damns everyone to at least Purgatory (unless they are martyrs or die immediately after receiving a plenary indulgence). Though many Catholic Theologians wince at this now, culturally it isn't wiped out by a change in official dogma. The resulting I'm bad thought produced Protestantism and ultimatly, secularism.
Orthodoxy too is effected by this, especially in North America. Eastern Europeans coming over from traditional Orthodox countries are surprised at North American Orthodoxy's puritanicalism. St. Vlad's was effected by St. Sergius in Paris and Holy Cross by Harvard. But we live in a society that can be very condemning of teh bahavior of others (without taking the log out of their own eye). In closing, the Theotokos is the ultimate proof of the goodness of humankind in true Orthodox Theology. The goodness in her won out over the weakness that she inherited as one like us, "branching from human seed".

Christ Is Among Us!

Respectfully and humbly submitted,

Three Cents

Dear Three Cents,

Respectfully, you overdo the Catholic side of things with respect to Purgatory.

To be "condemned" to purgatory is to be cleansed of impurities before one can go on to Heaven.

The Orthodox Church prays for the dead for this same purpose.

Also, what you say about human nature in Orthodox and Patristic theology is true.

But the Theotokos was sanctified by the Spirit at her very Conception to prepare her for her role in salvation history, as was John the Baptist.

This is confirmed by the fact of there being feasts of the Theotokos and the Forerunner, and by the text of the feasts themselves.

Alex