www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Great Compline in Pittsburgh Metropolia??

Can anyone tell me why a number of parishes throughout the Ruthenian Metropolia (including Van Nuys, Parma & Passaic Eparchies) no longer celebrate Great Compline (Po Vecheri) on Christmas Eve. I noticed in a lot of parishes they list caroling ,vespers w/ D.L. of St. Basil? Is this another case of revised rubrics??

Ung-Certez

I can say with certainty that my parish in Van Nuys, The Cathedral of St. Mary (in Sherman Oaks actually), WILL be celebrating great Compline this Christmas evening.

It may be more a case of local tradition coupled with different interpretations of standardised rubrics that there are such variations.

Steve Petach,
Cantor

Putting the best possible construction on a Christmas Eve without Great Compline, I suppose the reason might be that the use of Great Compline (an essentially Lenten service) on Christmas Eve is an accident of the Typicon which makes rather little sense. On the other hand, the singing of "God is With us" has (mistakenly) become identified with Christmas. One could think of various ways to reconcile the matter.

Incognitus

Is Dec. 24th not a day of strict fast in the Byzantine-South-West-Rus' recension? Has it not been the tradition of said recension to prescribe
the Great Compline service(only, no liturgy)? So it is another example of the Pittsburgh Metropolia replacing the Slavic usage with the Helenic usage,(as was the case with Paschal rubrics)? It doesn't make any sense considering our liturgical recension.

Ung-Certez (dazed and confused)

The pattern of Christmas Eve is that for the eve of Theophany and similar to that for Holy Saturday. Royal Hours, Great Vespers with Liturgy of St Basil and Great Compline (no Compline on Holy Saturday IIRC). On the day of the feast itself the Chrysostom Liturgy is prescrbed. Note that there are two distinct sets of readings for these two days.

Christ is Born!

Merry Christmas!

According to the Metropolia calendar, it says:

Royal Hours A.M., vespers w/ St. Basil Liturgy P.M. No mention is made about Great Compline where in the past it did.

Ung-Certez (still puzzled)

As Tony posted, it would seem that the custom of Compline followed by Liturgy (which I have seen many times) is actually the reverse order. Compline is usually the last service before retiring for the night. So it would seem that if compline were not to be celebrated, then Vespers with Liturgy of St. Basil would be all that is called for.

It seems that through most of my life Christmas (and Pascha)hasn't been celebrated the same way twice! Different Priests, Bishops and rubrics seems to come into play each year!

Steve

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!

We celebrated Grand Complines followed with the Divine Liturgy last evening. It was very beautiful. Earlier in the day, we did Vespers at 5 PM, then the Holy Supper at 7 PM. Since our Parish is in a very large retirement area, Complines started at 10 PM (I ask the Lord to provide wonderful blessings to all who attended and were able to stay awake and then make the drive home).

I realize this may not be the proper forum area, but I do ask you to join me in saying a prayer for the Health and Blessings of Anne Prokopiak.

She may have possibly has a mild stroke last evening at the completion of the Holy Supper, where her niece, our cantor , Anne-Marie, took her to the emergency room.

Consequently, we celebrated Complines and the Divine Liturgy without a cantor or the choir since our Choir attended Divine Liturgy today. Everyone did a beautiful job overall, but it really makes you realize how vital the cantor is to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.

I have learned the importance of remembering our cantor in my daily prayers.

I pray that each of you experience the joy in your heart as we celebrate the Birth of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ today!

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!

Michael (a sinner)

Fr. Petras' Typicon does, however, call for Great Compline to be celebrated.

Ed

I don't see why the identification of "God with Us" with Christmas would be necessarily mistaken. Certainly it is part of every Great Compline, Lenten, Theophany, or otherwise. But I think the solemn proclamation of the prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled in our Lord would be completely appropriate to associate with His coming in the flesh.

I have known Ukrainians, Rusyns and Russians over the years who referred to Velikij Povecheria (Great Compline) as simply "Z Nami Boh" ("Bog" for the Russians, of course). I have done the same myself.

Part of the equation of all of this is distance and pastoral realities. If you have a parish where many travel any distance, Liturgy following Great Compline is almost a necessity since getting up the next morning for another long trip is often not practical. If you have a priest covering multiple parishes/ missions, that also complicates matters. The dynamics of every parish will certainly differ in this respect.

But with Reader's Services and a few hardy souls, one can pray all of the services without a priest if necessary.

UC,

I am unsure how to answer your question. If you mean is there a push to celebrate the Vespers with St. Basil's in the evening as opposed to the morning or afternoon I would say yes, some feel an evening service should be held in the evening. But just as at Pascha, priests are pretty much free to do what they want. Some will do Vespers with St. Bsail's in the morning and Great Compline at night, some simply will have an evening and morning Liturgy as they do on Sundays and some will have Vespers with St. Basil's as their Christmas Eve liturgy. Are fewer parishes celebrating Great Compline than in the past when no evening liturgies were allowed? Yes, for better or worse.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Unfortunately, many parishes just have "Christmas Caroling" followed by vigil Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I think there is too much leniency given to pastors to do what they want. While the Pittsburgh Metropolia has been successful in restoring Eastern Christian things like Iconostasis and communicating infants, we still don't know what to do as far as creating and inforcing a traditional typica.

Ung-Certez

UC,

How does one enforce a typicon? Create liturgical police to go around and write down transgressions and report back to the bishops so they can...? What? Suspend priests who are already overworked and working past retirement age? This is certainly not what we want is it?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Why yes, the Typica Nazi. "No Great Compline for you!"

Ung-Certez

If FAther Anyone said to me "Look, I'm pushing 80; I'm not ready to engage in a radical valve-and-ring job on my style of serving" I might be willing to take that on board (there is a grandfather clause in the original letters accompanying the Ruthenian Recension books back in the early 1940s). But when Father Anyone says "O, it's a shame we can't do those things, but the people won't stand for it" he is lying in his teeth.


In most cases, when facing the argument "well, these things do take time" my response is to inquire diligently just what sort of timetable my interlocutor has in mind - particularly since the same person is likely to be introducing some of the most amazing changes himself.

This is precisely the sort of behavior which gives rise to the impulse to bring in the Byzantine Hitlers (whom I have never even met, by the way).

Incognitus