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Dear Forum,
In our fairly small parish, we have a large and active group of Roman Catholic mad at the RC for Vatican II. They think that the only way to salvation is thru Fatima. They have caused many problems during liturgy and at socail activities. During liturgy, when the word 'being' is sung like "The Trinity on in Being" a few of them will shout out "SUBSTANCE!!!" and also a few of them last year stopped me while venerating the Burial Shroud on Great Friday, to yell at me for not praying the stations before the service. (only those Roman Catholics pray them, they rest don't). The openly protest ecumennical events the parish does and when moving into our new church a few years ago, we were going to have no pews, only a few chairs on the side but they wrote an angry letter to the bishop, now we have pews. I know my parish isn't the only one with these souls, but is there any suggestions out there on how to work with these people? Thanks forum,

-ukrainiancatholic

Hang in there, they are despertly trying to hanf on to or to find something that hasnt exsisted since 1963 when they realize that it will never come back, maybe they will lighten up

ukrainiancatholic,

In our fairly small parish, we have a large and active group of Roman Catholic mad at the RC for Vatican II.

Understandable.

They think that the only way to salvation is thru Fatima.

There they're wrong. Catholicism never taught any such thing. Private revelations like that are not part of the faith. They are tolerated if they don't contradict the faith. One is free to believe or not believe in them. As a Catholic, you have the right not to believe in F�tima!

They have caused many problems during liturgy and at socail activities. During liturgy, when the word 'being' is sung like "The Trinity on in Being" a few of them will shout out "SUBSTANCE!!!" and also a few of them last year stopped me while venerating the Burial Shroud on Great Friday, to yell at me for not praying the stations before the service. (only those Roman Catholics pray them, the rest don't). The openly protest ecumennical events the parish does and when moving into our new church a few years ago, we were going to have no pews, only a few chairs on the side but they wrote an angry letter to the bishop, now we have pews. I know my parish isn't the only one with these souls, but is there any suggestions out there on how to work with these people? Thanks forum,

I have never met traditional Roman Catholics taking refuge at Byzantine Catholic churche who were rude like you describe.

If I were your priest I'd tell them, firmly, if they want to take refuge at your church for a while, fine, but stay out of everybody's way.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Ukrainian Catholic,

What to do about these Vatican II refugees?

Love them with all your heart. Surround them with acceptance and understanding, and respect their consciences. Make allowances for their weaknesses and dependencies. Forgive them if they have offended you.

Do not judge them harshly, for they sometimes are themselves victims of harshness and a lack of understanding in the Roman Church. Let them experience something else among us.

Do not try to change them. If they change (or even decide to become really Byzantine and Orthodox in spirit and spirituality), it will be by the Holy Spirit, not any human activity. If the Spirit chooses to do this, He will do so in his own time in His own way. So feel free of any such obligation toward them, and let them sense your inner peace and know the sincere love you feel for them.

At the beginning of the holy fast, double your prayers for them, and fast for them, and offer some act of kindness for them, and ask them to forgive you, if you have offended them in any way.

Elias

Thank you Father Elias for the advice. We have similar problems in our parish also.

Ukie,

Where is your Pastor? Why would your Bishop take into consideration what they wanted in the new Church?
Monk Elias they should be welcomed and prayed for but not allowed to be disruptive.Would you tolerate that in your Church?

Nicky's Baba

.

never mind....

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholicGuy ]

Just be true to the tradition and practice of your particular church. Give encouragement to others who join you and good example to those who don't as of yet. The Pope of Rome asks this of us. And we cannot hope to do better than that.

Lent is a good time for an "intensive".

What Fr. Elias recommends is truly good and salvific.

My only concern is that 'disruptive' activities, as described by ukrainiancatholic, can be soul wrenching for the poeple of the parish. And too much soul-wrenching can lead to the dissolution of the community. And that would be a great sin. Then, the refugees would have no place to go; and the Byzantines would lose their home.

Let us pray that the refugees will regain their footing amongst their own and prosper there. And may our own Byzantine peoples continue to find sustenance in their (and our) community and heritage.

Blessings!

Dear Ukranian Catholic,

Your trials are great indeed. Obviously this has been going on for quite a while - "moving into our new church a few years ago".

The advice from Monk Elias and others is true. These people need your prayers first and foremost.

May I offer a few practical suggestions. First as to their shouting during Liturgy, simply ignore their outburst. Giving them the attention they seek would only add fuel to their fire.

Secondly, when one of them admonishes you for "venerating the Burial Shroud on Great Friday, to yell at me for not praying the stations before the service", in the most kindest way possible say "thank you, but that is not the tradition in this church". Feeling they have lost the tradition of their church, they may realize they are also wrongly trying to change your traditions too.

Nicky's Baba's advice to speak to your pastor is good. I would think he has the authority to address this problem as leader of your community. Surely he sees what is going on. Perhaps he has already spoken to them privately.

These people are extremists. Being a RC all my life (until recently , I've never seen any RCs' outbursts as you describe. In my old parish of over 2500, there were always hardly 20 parishioners who attended Stations of the Cross during Lent on any given Friday.

I honestly question what kind of RCs these people are or if they are truly RCs at all.

Belief in Fatima is optional not required as Serge said. These people are very much misguided.

Hold fast to your beautiful sacred traditions and pray for these poor souls. Our Lord will handle them in His own time.

Peace,
Loretta

Loretta,

Being a RC all my life (until recently , I've never seen any RCs' outbursts as you describe.

Tell us more.

Dan Lauffer

Being a RC all my life (until recently) I've never seen any RCs' outbursts as you describe.

Sorry for my typing errors, the above is how it should have read.

Tell us more? My point was that RCs are, by and large, not "community based" as are BCs. I've always found a more "individual" approach to their spirituality for the most part. It's hard to imagine a formation of a group of RCs banding together to disrupt another churches traditions.

From my viewpoint, RCs are sheep. Since attending Liturgy at a BC church, I'm completely amazed at the participation of the community in celebrating their Worship as one body. This is not what occurs in a RC service. Perhaps the RC churches are too big, perhaps their focus is on only gaining attendance, or filling the coffers, or redefining themselves to the norms of today's society. Whatever the reasons (and my intentions are not to discredit their efforts in any way) I personally find in the BC what is lacking in the RC churches.

The radical behavior described in ukrainiancatholic original post appears bizaare. From my experience, these actions are more in line with evangelican Protestants. Aggression is not part of the RC's faith. Few RCs have the courage to discuss their beliefs even among themselves let alone publicly proclaim what they believe is true during services at another church.

Perhaps this is just not happening here in South Florida. I've been a parishioner at all 7 RC churches over the past years at one time or another (seaching for the spirituality my soul has been craving) and what I've seen has always been the same complacency and impersonal behavior.

Peace,
Loretta

Every priest I have known has told me of similiar (though milder) problems in his ministry and every one has said they eventually go away. Don't engage them. Pray for them. Love them. The problem will solve itself in time.

They are searching for a particular style of spirituality (which is fine). Some might also think their vies should be imposed on everyone else. But this too is rarely a problem as I never heard of one of these folks even be interested in being a trustee yet alone be elected.


K.

This is a sad situation but one that is not isolated to the parish described. While such public outbursts may indeed be rare among so-called "traditionalist" Roman Catholics, they are not nonexistent. I have encountered this type of fanatic a good number of times in my ministry. It is hard to pass judgment on a situation that one is not involved in, but, since it has been brought up for discussion, as I conclude below, it seems that these people have already far overstepped their proper bounds.

What Loretta defines them as is absolutely correct. They are extremists, a particular style of religious fanatic that unfortunately exists in all denominations and jurisdictions. There are certainly many Orthodox of the so-called "traditionalist" camp who would and do adhere to similar positions of extremity - just read the Indiana List or other "hyper-Orthodox" camps.

All too often, dissatisfied RCs try to find refuge in our church for all of the wrong reasons, namely to find in our churches what they feel they have lost in their own. For those truly open to the working of the Holy Spirit, this can be an opportunity to grow spiritually and, if it is God's will, eventually come over to the East completely. It is a chance for them to learn and expand their horizons. Our goal however, should not be to proselytize them into changing rites, but if possible, to help them to understand their own church from the proper perspective. This may be impossible without divine intervention.

Unfortunately, the caliber of people that make the effort to leave the Roman parish and seek out a more "conservative" or "traditional" church is often the type described by ukrainiancatholic - stubborn, close-minded, pushy and usually wrong in their conceptions of the Catholic Church. I'm not surprised at all that such fanatics would shout "substance" aloud during the liturgy or criticize authentic Byzantine Catholics who are following their own customs. For the RC refugees of this kind, there can be no other form or manner different from their own misconceptions. Like the Orthodox who claim that there is no approach to Eastern Christianity other than their own rigid methodology and who believe that to even say a prayer in a non-Orthodox church is sinful, (to use just two examples), these staunch "Tridentines" cannot see the Catholic faith any other way than their own. They are the same ones who enjoy the Slavonic liturgy because it supposedly reminds them of the Latin mass, because they cannot understand what is being said.

And, further, there is a real danger in some of these situations. I cannot speak for this instance, but there is often forced, outward expression of these peoples' tastes, especially in regards to their offspring, for example, children being required to wear outdated clothing, which may embarrass them, strict forms of punishment and humiliation for offenses and something as simple as lace chapel veils imposed on young girls who may not understand what they are for. These impressionable children often have the look of fear in their eyes, lest their parents take vengeance on them for some act that might offend them or God. They may be leery of speaking to others, if their parents are in the vicinity. The issues of domination and submission that these people demonstrate in church sometimes follow over into family life. It may not be just church, but an entire pathology. Scary yes, and I'm sorry to be so specific, but this is what I have seen. I realize that it probably does not apply to those being discussed here, but I offer it as a caution because it can happen. It is a sensitive subject, but one which a pastor may well come across.

Fatima necessary for salvation? I'm not surprised in the least. There is a ominous connection between these revelations and the phenomenon of misguided conservatism. Granted, there are probably some sincere believers among those devoted to Fatima, but all too often it is associated with the kind of characters mentioned here. I could not tell you how many times I have had to defend our church from the criticisms and attacks of members of the "Blue Army." An army it is indeed and one that often takes aggressive and dominating measures against "non-believers." I'm sorry if there are members of the "Army" here who may not be like this. The concept of the army or of Our Lady of Fatima is not bad in and of itself. I'm just speaking from experience. Often times, offensive members can give an organization a very bad reputation. I don't think that this is the way that the BVM would have envisioned her messages to be taken.

But, I admit that the issue here is how to deal with these people in a pastoral sense. It is easy for me and you to let out some steam and emphasize how much these refugees get on our nerves or are wrong. I just did it and there is a need for this among ourselves, in a way that won't hurt others. However, to be "true Christians" (not in the right-believing sense) we should at least try to be kind to them. It may be hard. People like that are really in a sorry spiritual state, and frankly, if I can be so direct, in danger of loosing their salvation. Why? Because they have closed their lives off from the rest of the church and the world. But, God is a merciful God and would have us do our best to be the same.

How to do it, we ask? There may not be an easy solution and I agree with others here, that it cannot be allowed to disrupt the parish. This is most important. That would be counterproductive and against what we stand for. We can try to explain things to them and even give them materials to read that could enlighten their minds as to the variety of expressions in Catholicism. This should even include writings of the Popes. However, this approach will probably not work, since these people have already displayed a distaste for what popes of recent memory have done to "their" church.

In the final analysis, the pastor of the church may have to give them an ultimatum - either pray with us in a civilized manner or leave us in peace. Only he can know what the overall result of their presence or lack thereof will be. He has others to care for, not just that small group and it is the entire community that can possibly be at risk of disruption. It is a hard judgment call and one that is never easy to make. I don't like to have to be harsh with people, or to hurt them. Oftentimes these people may not realize that they are being ridiculous or potentially harming the parish or other people. But, if the good of the whole is in jeopardy, and all kind ways of approaching the matter have been tested and failed, the pastor may have to revert to taking a position on the matter. It is never easy, at least for me.

One consideration to investigate is how are the majority of parishioners effected by their disruptions? Do most people simply ignore them and continue as usual or have many been offended in the same way as ukrainiancatholic has been? Have these refugees made active attempts to destabilize the direction that the parish has been going, under the direction of their pastor? It would seem that the answer is "yes," if they have already written to the bishop to express their distaste for traditional Byzantine customs. Really, shame on the bishop who is willing to listen to a group of dissatisfied RCs over the authentic needs of his people, if indeed they were responsible for the change in plans. Perhaps they use financial or influential means to get what they want. I don't know the situation, but can tell you that it happens.

To me, it would seem that they have already overstepped their bounds by going to the bishop over such issues and by openly protesting things that the parish does or is involved in, such as the translation of the liturgy or ecumenical gatherings. And besides, for all of their attachment to "traditional" Catholic values, they seem to outrightly go against what the church is teaching and try to discredit the clergy and hierarchy. There has to be a time when enough is enough, and unless they have some particular pull with the eparchial bishop (and maybe they do), I would not tolerate their actions for long in my parish, as hard as it may be to take a stand. As a lay person, the poster can and should continue to support the pastor in his efforts and when possible, be vocal about what is right and what is wrong, rather than merely ignore the problem, hoping it will go away. It probably won't.

Priest Joe

Dear Priest Joe,

You have beautifully descibed the situation as it exists not only in Byzantine Catholic parishes but also in some Latin Catholic Parishes. There have been instances of persons who are dissatisfied with the directives of the Bishop or the legitimate practices in the local parishes dissrupting the Eucharist and other activities in the Latin Catholic Church. The behavior described in the initial posting is no stranger among us either.

It has been so bad is some cases that the civil authorities have been involved in resolving the situations. It was done with great sorrow and with saddness as a last resort from what I know.

You are right on target in your description of the plight of some of the dissatisfied members of our Church spiritually, emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Change is difficult for most of us in even minor things. Some of us find it difficult to let someone else to sit in our chair, for example.

When change is to things that hold the key to life's meaning, some folks simply cannot tolerate it. I'm not putting them down, their pain is real. They call to us for our support and our prayers indeed, as you and other posters suggest.

But as you point out, the worshipping community should not allow its life to be destroyed, in my opinion.

I admire your postings. You have much to share and to teach.

Thank you!

Steve
JOY!