www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Anti Vatican 2 Parishioners

You know, this thread has been very good for me. Having come to Byzantine Catholicism from the Latin rite, I have now had the chance to re-examine the reasons I did so. I am not anti Vatican II and I don't feel or act at all (at least I don't think so) like those Priest Joe has described. I wanted to make sure that I was'nt hiding something from myself, that maybe I was like that. Then I listed all the things that drew me to the eastern faith in the first place. No, thank God, I can now say prayerfully that it was none of these. Study, prayer, hunger, and desire were the reasons. So I must thank all of you for giving me pause to do a gut check on myself. Now I can go into the Great Lent with a firm heart. God Bless you all, keep me thinking!

Michael

I think that the anti-V2 people have a good point. If things hadn't deteriorated so rapidly
then they wouldn't have had anything to be upset about.

How about this: A rather conservative parish near where I live recently stated in last week's newsletter that they were going to start having the priest face east during one of their Sunday masses. This is not a Latin Mass parish either,
and uses a hybrid Latin-English mass for the mass in question.

Today, the pastor reported in the newsletter that the Archbishop had denied permission to do so.
The pastor said it was a surprise to him that he had to ask permission. This is ridiculous! This flies in the face of historic Latin Christendom.
Its not as though this parish is going to start a
trend or anything-most of the parishes in the city where this are have the usual atrocious liturgies.

It was the horrible Novus Ordo mass that made me become Orthodox instead of Catholic-its no wonder that many RC's are leaving for Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism.

NB: I would actually be upset if I was Ukrainian
Catholic and these people started to tell me what to do, but however misguied they are now, I think their actions are somewhat understandable.

MK

Michael, I am truly upset to learn that the "Novus Ordo" played a major role in your move to Orthodoxy. However, as I have reiterated again and again and again, it is not really the so-called "Novus Ordo" but rather its execution that distresses folks since it can be done so poorly.

On Christmas Eve, I saw the celebration at St. Peter's. "Novus Ordo"; and, apart from the omission of the 'prayers at the foot of the altar', and the omission of the "last Gospel", it was not really distinguishable from the Trent formulation. And it was "high Church" all the way. How it is done at St. XYZ Parish is another matter. It takes a lot of effort on the part of the priest, the acolytes, the organist/musicians, the singers, the sacristans, etc. If there is no effort put into making the liturgy a prayerful experience, then it will fail. And turn into a 'prayer-meeting'.

The fact is that the Byzantine Church has a very staid and immutable format for celebrations. I think that this is the element that attracts the dissaffected RCs. It's always the same; and there is NO interaction among the congregants as there is in many Roman Catholic celebrations. And that's even more comforting for them.

I too have seen the 'uniform' during liturgy. (I thought I was just being nuts, but since it is mentioned above leads me to believe that I'm not just imagining things). Dad (and sons) in black pants with white shirts and blue ties; mom (and daughters) in longish dresses; sort of Catholic Amish. I'm afraid these kids will one day be seen wearing "Recovering Catholic" T-shirts.

I think that the best advice remains: be kind to the refugees; make them feel welcome; and make them aware that "we" have our own ways, and we would hope that they would respect those ways. And if they cannot, they then should be encouraged to move elsewhere.

On potential solution that I've seen here in suburban Maryland might work. The traditionalist RCs remain members of their local Roman parishes, but they have purchased a small (usually formerly Protestant) chapel out in the woods, set up an 'altar', installed stations of the cross, etc. And they hold 'perpetual' rosary, and other devotions as a lay society. And a priest comes sometimes to celebrate benediction, and to hear confessions in the 'old style'. Thus, they are still members of their own community (and, frankly: are out of our hair), and they can do what they want in their own environment. Sort of a lay 'confraternity' without canonical status.

I wish them well in their spiritual journey. And I beg God's mercy upon our priests who have to deal with this reality in a way that preserves the integrity of the Church and that must also reflect the love and kindness of the Master whom we all serve.

Blessings!

Amen, Dr. John!

Steve
JOY!

Dr. John,

I can't begin to describe how disappointing my first experience with Roman Catholicism was.
I was genuinely shocked that my local Episcopal parish had a much better liturgy than the NO parish that I first attended.

Actually, the mass I attended this morning wasn't an NO, I think-the parish in question is run by Dominicans, and they have their own sort of mass, I think. Nevertheless, it was very beautiful, becuase of 3 things IMHO:

1. Only the organ was used.
2. The Eucharistic Canon was chanted, and none of it was deleted.
3. The Adoramus hymnal was used, which is much more traditional and better than the horrible stuff that Oregon Catholic Press supplies for most RC parishes in the state of Oregon.
i.e. Bach vs. the St. Louis Jesuits-no contest there.

What I find interesting is that while there are plenty of RC parishes that I would never attend if I were RC, there are also Orthodox parishes that I don't like to go to either-it just shows that every Church has problems-its just a matter of which problems you want to deal with.
Couldn't these people find a more Latinized BC parish around? I think they would fit in a lot better, though they need to adopt a different (not worse or better) mindset to truly live a live rooted in Byzantine Spirituality.

MK

Well, I have a feeling I know this parish. I remember our Bishop being given a latin lesson in the Sacristy as he disrobed. If not, well then I know of this type of RC personally.

As far as I know the Vatican has recently allowed for RC's to worship in the Tridentine Latin Mass/Rite if they so desire. I would kindly invite them to search for a RC parish that will accomodate them. Sure pray for their welfare and be kind to them, but to allow them to destroy a parish is a greater sin in my sinful opinion.

First, the pastor did not and could not hold his ground because he was ultimately undermined by the Bishops decision.

Reality is that leadership comes from the top up and many Eastern Bishops, because of the influence of Uniatism, do not accept within themselves that they are the one with the authority to act in a decisive manner. I think this will change with a new generation of Bishops. But then again if Rome chooses them, you never know whether it is a blessing or a curse until after they are your bishop.

I share your frustration. I know personally that it is ok to Latinize our churches but to make them orthodox is heterodox. It isa unfair and a double standard, however that is the mileau that we live in. Don't lose your dreams and don't give up but know exactly where you stand.

a sinner,
Ality

I see where you are coming from Michael. It is indeed true that the way the Liturgy is celebrated (e.g., by Dominicans using their ritual) can either 'make or break' the services.

The big jump is the one from 'being at the service' (Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, etc.) to the 'spiritual response' in the individual person. Some folks clearly like the style that allows them to kneel quietly, bathed in colored light from the stained glass, with the organ playing softly in the background and the priest 'serving' the Mass at the altar. Others are clearly uplifted by communal singing, hand-holding and the sense of being part of an active group. We Byzantines are clearly more aligned with the latter, since we function best when we are in constant musical dialogue with the priest, deacon and cantors. But, for us, there are no 'surprises' -- everything is in the book. (And, our constancy in this provides the best catechesis for the parishoners.)

Thus, I think your experience in the Episcopal church, which seemed quite good, was the result of worshipping in an active form but according to a set model -- without any surprises: verbal, musical or otherwise. Just like Byzantines and Orthodox. (The Slavs seem to have a greater penchant for musical participation by the community; for Greeks, certain hymns are popularly sung, but for much of the liturgy, it is just quiet attention.)

I find it quite interesting that the Episcopals, who like to consider themselves the 'via media' between liturgical Catholicism and a-liturgical Protestantism, have a wide variety of parishes where a person can pick and choose the type of service: High-Church St. Pauls or Low-Church St. Stephen's. I would hope that this does not happen in the Catholic Church, although it may be one solution to the question of how to serve the whole spectrum of needs. But then again, perhaps there ought to be different styles of Mass available in a parish, one 'traditional' and one contemporary; the only drawback is it essentially establishes two 'parishes' in one parish. And that's not good either.

Blessings!

Dr John,

Strange you should have come up with this. A few years back we did effectively have 2 different styles of Mass in our Parish. We were having a slight crisis with insufficient numbers of Cantors and Organists. We discussed this ad infinitem, could not find any more musicians so organised things so that we had 5 of out the 6 with music and one without. Since the Musicians were on a Rota this meant that the musicless Mass moved each week. Result -- complaints
Whatever we did they weren't happy and did not respond to our pleas for musicians.

It was finally solved when we all got totally fed up and at the regular meeting of the Liturgy Group Fr Stephen said that he could understand the some folk did not want music [ this had been expressed rather forcibly to him by a few parishioners of long standing ] music could be a distraction and to the totally tone deaf it could be less than ideal thus we decided that one Mass should always be a 'spoken' Mass and set on the 6pm one - result - a happy Parish ! This continued for about 6 years until we had to reorganise our Mass Schedules and 'lost 'the 6pm one. Now the complaints have started again so we will have to look once more at this.

I've come to the firm belief that you cannot satisfy all of the people all of the time.

Angela

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

The example of St. Cantius in Chicago may be instructive. They offer three or four masses on Sunday in a rather large cathedral in Chicago. We considered going there ourselves.

One is Tridentine facing East. One is Latin Novus Ordo and one or two English Novus Ordo. All with choir. They have also established an Order of St. Cantius just recently recognized by Rome. It is quite a parish.

We didn't join there because it was too far away to be practical and we found the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Dan Lauffer

+JMJ+

UkranianCatholic:

Such people are not an accurate portrayal of most of us Roman Catholics that don't like the PostVatican II ways of the Church.

for an accurate portrayal of the Traditional Catholic attitude and way of life, I suggest visiting two of the best sites on the internet www.fssp.org [fssp.org] and www.oldworldrus.com [oldworldrus.com] (the latter is by an Orthodox Reader we all know and love).

Devotion to Our Lady of Fatima has never been required and cannot be required as devotion for Catholics. It is one's personal choice whether or not to venerate Our Lady of Fatima.

As for their practices in "yelling out substance" this is a sin on their part because they are disrupting the Liturgy. As for the stations of the Cross, this also is a private devotion and is never required of even Roman Catholics. I suggest that the priest tell them to either be more quiet and respectful of the Byzantine Traditions or to hop, skip, or jump to the nearest indult parish.

Joe Zollars

Dear Dan,

And we're so happy to have you !

Although Western Christians think of us Byzantines as people who participate in madness,
it is nice to know that there are (former) Methodists in our madness!

(I promise I'll work on some new material . . .).

Alex

Dear ukrainiancatholic,

I see in what you've described the situation that existed in our parish when it first got started.

There were no RC's, but you would never have known it . . .

The pastor spent long months sermonizing about the differences between the Latin and Byzantine Churches and Rites.

He would explain the "Why" in the differences, and would also try to develop a sense of respect in our parishioners for those differences.

Off the cuff, I assume that these RC's don't really know what a "Particular Church" or "Rite" truly is.

Being against Vatican II, that Council's teachings about the Eastern Church would likewise fall on deaf ears as far as they were concerned.

I think it is imperative, in such a situation, for the parish priest to use sermon time for some basic instruction for them with respect to Rites.

He should explain things like why we don't kneel on Sundays, the great Eastern veneration for the Mother of God that really goes beyond that of the Latin Church (that will make them take notice!).

As for the Shroud, copies of the Great Friday services and the Akathist to the Passion of Our Lord could be made and distributed to them so that they can see for themselves the beauty of the services to the Passion of Christ, a beauty that really does go beyond the Stations of the Cross, a wonderful service in and of itself.

He could also explain how Our Lady of Fatima fits in with all this, the apparitions in Eastern Europe, the more than 1,000 miraculous Icons of the Eastern Church etc.

He could also mention that Orthodox saints prayed the Rosary such as St Seraphim of Sarov who said it came to the Orthodox Church in the 8th century - maybe that will shock them!

He could also explain that the Shroud devotion came from the East and later filtered into the West with the taking down of the Body of Christ from the Cross etc.

The first order of business is to cut down on their attitude of being Smart Alex's.

Believe me, I know all about Smart Alex's . . .

Alex

I agree with Dr. John in part. The real reason I vastly prefer the ancient Latin Mass to the modern NO Folk Mass celebrated in this country is because the Missal of St. Pope Pius V is a result of organic development. The Missal of Pope Paul VI was written by "liturgical experts", many of whom were very low-church protestants.

The Oregan Catholic Press is the primary distributer of hymnals and pew missals for most Novus Ordo Churches in America. The Adoremus hymnal is much better. To be honest, I would not be opposed to the offering up of the Liturgy as on EWTN if they would just face east.

As a Side Note, is anyone else here familiar with the Liturgy as offered up at Clear Creek Priory? It is a very beutiful Mass and the amazing thing about It is they blend a few Novus Ordo elements into the celebration of the ancient Liurgy.

Most of us Traditionalists actually do know Latin.

The Dominican Rite does have it's own ritual, but mostly they follow the modern Roman Rite. Many religious orders do have their own rituals (Dominicans, Carthusians, etc.) that were based on the Roman Rite, or other local rite such as Sarum, Gallican, or Mozarabic, at the time. fortunatley, many of these religious houses are returning to these rites. I own a copy of the Dominican Ritual (Latin-English) that was celebrated on the Feast of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary awile back. I will gladly mail this to anyone if you would provide me with the postal address via my private email.

Joe Zollars

Reminds me of a friend of mine who can describe in great detail the liturgical practices of every Catholic, Epsicopal, High Lutheran and Orthodox church in the county. He has firm and strong opinions on the proper way to worship, and he doesn't regularly go to church, because not a single parish meets hois standards.

K.

Dear Brother Kurt,

This reminds me of the fellow who told his bishop he never went to Church because there were "All those hypocrites there."

The bishop told him, "There's always room for one more . . ."

Alex