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This will need to be address by out resident bi-ritual deacon. I am only parapharasing a discussion that took place elsewhere on the forum and I could have gotten it wrong.

Yes, it says so in the CCC I believe, but I believe, I will check, that it says to come up with our own to suplement the CCC, not replace it.

As for you comment on the Feast.... I do not understand why you brought that up.

David

Dear Aklie,

Thank you!

I think we Byzantines of all Particular Churches can learn a great deal from what is certainly the traditional and Apostolic manner of training for the priesthood.

Stuart once discussed this and I think the practical experience of the EOTC highlights his earlier points, to be sure.

It would be terrible for the EOTC to lose its rich tradition for the training of its priests etc.

Ultimately, some adaptation would have to be made - I don't know how and thankfully no one is asking me for my advice.

I am just in awe of the glorious Ethiopian tradition!

(Now get back to your term papers - no girl will want you otherwise, as my mother used to tell me ).

Alex

"...it says to come up with our own to suplement the CCC, not replace it."

So Eastern Theology is nothing but a "supplement" to Western Theology? I remember hearing about this "Supplemental Catholicism" somewhere before. I don't buy it.

Should supplemental ministry should be formed in Latin seminaries with supplemental Byzantine studies "on the side" to keep their Catholicism faithful?

Why don't Latin seminarians and deacon students take Eastern Christian theology with Latin supplements on the side? This, I believe, will give lots of business to our seminary.

As for the blurb about the Catholic Church's teaching and celebration of St. Anne's Conception, I take it that you didn't get it.

Dear David,

Yes, I think Cantor Joseph is making the case, as he invariably always does, for the development of our own Eastern catechetical sources, seeing that the CCC is a Latin document reflecting the rich theological heritage of the Western Church.

The celebration of the ancient Feast of St Anne's Conception was changed to that of the "Immaculate Conception," as you know, after the doctrine was proclaimed by the Pope in the 19th century.

To be true to our own rich theological and liturgical patrimony, we have maintained the original name of the Feast - and especially since the Latin doctrine added nothing to our own traditional understanding of the Conception of the Virgin Mary in holiness in the womb of her mother, St Anne.

Alex

Thank you, Alex.

A theology not celebrated in our temples is simply not our theology. The CCC is a wonderful text, but I unaware of our Church singing from catechism texts.

Its' 'lex orandi, lex credendi' all over again.

BTW, are you aware of any Eastern Catholic replacing our stichera to St. Anne with stichera to the Immaculate Conception - other than borrowing hymns written in other particular churches? This puzzle still keeps me up at night at times. :p

Sorry about the distraction from the topic's thread.

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Yes, our rich Basilian liturgical heritage truly has created special rubrics to celebrate the "Immaculate Conception" in our Church!

There are also special rubrics to celebrate all those saints who, in their lifetime, fought to have the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception advanced. I kid you not . . .

Then there is the special Akathist to the Immaculate Conception that is contained in the 1893 Akafistnyk published in L'viv.

As a matter of fact, Orthodox have used that Akafist, as is mentioned in the "Canonization of Saints in the Orthodox Church" by Met. Ilarion Ohienko.

There are several images of the Immaculate Conception that are actually venerated as miraculous icons in Orthodoxy, as mentioned by the Russian Orthodox professor Poselianin in his book on the Icons of the Mother of God "Bogomater" published at Jordanville.

There were Orthodox Church brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception who wore the medal that resembled the Miraculous Medal, prayed a form of the Panahia prayer "All Immaculate Mother of God, save us!" and took the bloody vow to defend to the death the doctrine - in the 17th century.

I wish you a restful night tonight!

Alex

Alex,

So, this is an "organic development?" Should our church start promoting it more if it is our tradition? Is this the same group that came up with Byzantine Stations of the Cross?

"There are several images of the Immaculate Conception"

All from ultrasound scans, right? How does one write an icon of a conception?

Dear Cantor Joseph,

At present, I think we have two traditions within the UGCC.

My in-laws attend what I will call a "Basilian tradition" parish where you will find Molebens to the Sacred Heart, the May devotion, Stations of the Cross at Lent etc.

The "Eastern tradition" is also represented with its best examples being St Nicholas Church in Toronto and, if you don't mind the drive, St Elias Church in Brampton .

Many parishes have an admixture and are somewhere in between.

The two traditions are in tension. For example, when our Synod wanted to proclaim a feast for the Saints of Ukraine/Kyivan Church, they ignored the obvious date of the Second Sunday after Pentecost, the date on which the Orthodox celebrate it, and opted for the Fourth Sunday.

And why? This is because to have it on the Second Sunday might make this feast conflict with the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi Feasts, even though Rome has told us we have no obligation to observe those feasts any longer as they are not our tradition.

And perhaps also there are those among our beloved bishops who don't like us getting too close and snug with our Orthodox colleagues . . .

That is the state of affairs with us.

How are you Ruthenians doing these days in this respect?

Alex

"How are you Ruthenians doing these days in this respect?"

Alex,

We are still celebrating Ascension Thursday on Thursday.

Excellent name for a day, eh?

Joe Thur

Dear Cantor Joseph,

"For Thur" - in more ways than one!

(Administrator, really, shouldn't I get some sort of recognition for such statements as these? )

Alex

"A Latin deacon my preside at a marriage, but a deacon, or even a priest, is only a witness in a marriage the sacrament takes place between the groom and the bride. Where in the Byzantine tradition, at the sacrament of crowning, a priest is necessary as he performs the sacrament"

This belief of the Latin Church sounds quite atypical if compared with other understanding of the Western Church about the sacraments and the role of the clergy, where the most important element of the Mass (before Vatican II, of course) was the priest-sacrificer, and not the "congregation, and the preference for the propper forms in the sacraments.

This is not strictly true although it was obscured in the Latin Church pre-Vatican II. In the Tridentine Mass, before the Preface, the priest said "Pray that my Sacrifice and yours may be acceptable"
So this does indicate the role of the congregation although practically the Acolytes or Choir were the only ones to take active part in the Mass in response to the priest.

Nik,

First of all, I don't think I have welcomed you to Orthodoxy. It is good to be in communion with you.

Could you provide a citation as to when I posted what you claim I did?

Your brother in the Orthodox faith,

Axios

Let the CHurch chant "AMIN"

Dear Friends,

It's nice to see everyone is in a good mood!

God bless and be good!

Alex