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I want to thank everyone for your replies, you have given me something to think about.

Now for some specific comments;

Fr Elias,
One question, just because something occurs out of necessity within a monasteries of nuns does that mean it should be done within a parish setting?

Axios,
I do not think your observation of Latins having a preference for 10 -13 year old boys. Here in the Diocese of Rochester, NY, you find boys, young men, and older men serving at the altar.

Kurt,
You said, "But I would hope our community is not drawn into some dispute of women can't/women must." This is exactly what I see happening and what a few comments made by this gentleman were about. His point, as I see it, is "if a man can do it why can't a woman". He sees equality the way the world does.

Also, all of you must understand the community here in Rochester, NY. A couple of years ago there was a schism within the Diocese. A suspended priest took half a parish and formed a new church. At the end of last year this church had a woman ordained.

I can see the good of a discussion such as the role of women within the parish church, but I am not sure that this discussion should be taking place here where the issue is so polarized and muddled.

Let me add this, one of the reasons put forward, again by the same gentleman, for the father/son altar serving teams was this. It seems that church within our parish community, in many of the families, just for the women and children. His idea is that if we can get the father's there to serve with their sons then we can get them back into the church. I am not to sure if this is a good idea or not. I just don't know.


Your brother in Christ,
David

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Axios & Monk

"From the Particular Norms for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh:
Canon 707 �l

�8. Women are prohibited from serving at the altar."

Case closed! No need in bringing up the issue any further.

Just for my information: How do you know it is NOT Byzantine Tradition to allow only boys to serve at the altar (THE HOLY OF HOLIES) in order to foster vocations? Did you read something from the pratices of Hagia Sophia that said differently?

God Bless!

In the churches in mother eparchies of the Pittsburgh metropolia (somewhere in Europe...), it's rather unusual to see boys or even young men serving at the altar. More often than not, the server is a non-vested senior male who opens the north door of the ikonostas for the priest, and perhaps carries a candle walking before the priest at the Great Entrance. That's it...

Boys are found as servers in the cathedrals and during pilgrimages in the Presov Eparchy, but I haven't seen too many boys serving elsewhere.

Boys or men, I don't care. I just wish somebody would teach the servers what to do with the ripidia (fans)...
p.s. With apologies to Monk Elias, the word is "kadilo" which actually means "incense." A censer is "kadilnicja." But why must we retain so many foreign terms in our American Church?

Dear David,

You are right, it should probably not be done. In the Parish Church I am most familiar with, it is not done (in keeping with the norms of the Archdiocese cited here).

My only point is the out of 'necessity' there is a role for women or girls, in assisting with the candles and preparing what is necessary. This is a great help, as it is very distracting to celebrate when there is no assistance whatsoever with the candles (in the body of the Church) the incense, or with the zeon. Such help is much appreciated, and there is no harm in teaching women and girls what to do [outside the iconostas], should the necessity arise. In this way, it avoids the overly-dogmatic "not ever, no way", which can be discouraging to some.

Dear Rich,

Thanks for the correction. Obviously my language skills are lacking. It reminds me of a funny story I heard recently, when one of the servers attended the Liturgy concelebrated by a deacon (a rare sight around here), he said it was curious how the "deacon kedillo-ed the icon over here, and then he kedillo-ed the icon over there, and then he kedillo-ed everybody in the Church!"

Thanks again!

Elias

RichC wrote: "But why must we retain so many foreign terms in our American Church?"


CHRIST (Greek)

Apostle (Greek)
Epistle (Greek)
Evangelist (Greek)
Heresy (Greek)
Orthodoxy (Greek)
Alleluia (Greek)
Pentateuch (Greek)
Torah (Hebrew)
Halleluja (Hebrew)
Antiphon (Greek)
Prokeimenon (Greek)
Liturgy (Greek)
Mass (Latin)
Pentecost (Greek)
Annunciation (Latin)
Magnificat (Latin)
Gospel (Old English from the Latin)
Orarion (Greek)
Vestment (Latin)
Nave (Latin)
Narthex (Greek)
Iconostasis (Greek)
Icon (Greek)
Presbyter (Greek)
Deacon (Greek)
Episcopacy (Greek)
Bishop (Old English from the Latin from the Greek)
Lector (Latin)
Pascha (Latin and Greek from the Hebrew 'pesach')
Ministry (Latin)
Mission (Latin)
Kyrios (Greek)
Messiah (Greek from both the Aramaic and Hebrew)
Cantor (Latin)
Altar (Latin)
Sanctuary (Latin)
Sacred (Latin)
Theology (Greek)
Spirit (Latin)
Pneuma (Greek)
Trisagion (Greek)
Sanctus (Latin)
Logos (Greek)
Eucharist (Greek)
Monastery (Greek)
Anchorite (Greek)
Hesychasm (Greek)
Dogma (Greek)
Catechism/Catechist (Greek)
Lent (Old English)
Christian/Christianity (Greek)
Baptism (Greek)
Chrism/Chrismation (Greek)
Anaphora (Greek)
Elias (Greek)
Elijah (Hebrew)
Luke (Greek)
Nativity (Latin)
Incense (Old French/Latin)

* America (from the Latin 'Americus')
* Church (Old English from the Greek)


It would seem that the reason is because the Church goes beyond the borders of America.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Fr. Elias,
As I replied earlier, and you know from our conversations, there is a problem here in the Rochester area as to the role of women in the Church.

This is baggage, that must be recognized, we carry into any discussion we have on this issue here.

I see what you are saying about teaching women/girls to assist would be a great help when there is no assistance.

But we do not have this problem, at worst, there is one altar server present at every Divine Liturgy now that I have started to assist. Usually there are two. Sometimes we have four and once we had five.

Also, it is not as if any girls are running up to Father and requesting this.

I see this as an attempt to fix a problem that we do not have. As with the reader. No one has requested this.

I believe that this gentleman whats to get others involved so that they can participate in the Liturgy. I think that he doesn't count standing in the Pews (yes we still have pews for the moment) as participating. He wants more people to be active.

Thanks again for the help here. This is a challenge for me, I think I need to modify my views on this as I see myself as one of the "hard liners" on this issue when maybe there is a better middle road to travel, if you know what I mean.


David

But not ONE in your list was Slavic.

The only foreign (i.e., Slavic) term in Fr. Petras's typikon is "Otdanije." Why not "leavetaking"?
After all, "We're in America now."

Axios,

since we are talking about equality etc. I did a little homework on the name Axios. I found this link: www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.html [eskimo.com]

It turns out Axios is a support group for Gays/Lesbians in the Orthodox Churches. Is that how you got your name? If so do you think it is appropriate for this forum?

God Bless!

RichC,

I have seen both terms used in various publications. Leave-taking seems more consistent with the other terms chosen (i.e., Matins and not Orthros), but maybe because this term is widely known in its Slavic word from the past. How many English-speaking people have been well-educated in what a Leave-taking is besides ol' time cantors? How many pastors actually celebrate the festive vespers a second time on this day?

My own speculation.

Joe

Bob,

The correct way to correct people is with love. That altar boy was hurt by his priest's vicious way of correcting in anger. This is wrong. It's all in the presentation. If a priest talked to me that way when I made an honest mistake, you better believe I wouldn't serve with him again. Yes we have to respect our priests. But the priests have to instruct in love, not make everyone nervous. You don't want to foster a nervous attitude behind the altar, where everyone is afraid of messing up (I've seen this happen.)

anastasios

Joe,

How many people besides cantors know what a Typikon is, or actually consult one? How many cantors even consult one? (Judging from the bizarre things I'm accustomed to hearing from place to place, I'd bet that almost none do.)

FWIW, I always at least listen to a CD of Paschal Matins on the "otdanije" of Pascha since I certainly couldn't find a parish where it's done.

Wouldn't it be nice (back on topic!) if learning the Typikon, and (gasp) learning to properly CHANT the Epistle was part of altar server training? When you're desperate for anyone to teach, anyone to serve, etc., of course you will have to be satisfied with mediocrity. The dilemma is what to do once we have accepted mediocrity as the norm.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

"How many cantors even consult one?"


I do, our parish schola, and what is taught in our adult ECF. My pastor does so many of the services (you name it, we do it and then some) that it is an absolut must. The problem exists if those encharged with these responsibilities are not doing their job or celebrating the services in their parishes or not consulting the Typicon like they should. Concerning the standard of mediocrity, what is done done in our parishes is OUR responsibility; what is not being done in the eparchy is ultimately the bishop's responsibility as 'overseer.'


"what to do once we have accepted mediocrity as the norm."

This is a problem. Unfortunately, the cantor job is a 'volunteer' ministry not greatly supported, therefore you get what you pay for. Luckily, there are many volunteer cantors trying hard to do their best. They should be considered. But if you are not the parish secretary, the lawn-care expert, or the janitor, forget it! Many cantors have to find, via osmosis or telepathy, what and how to order the proper texts for chanting the liturgies of our church. The parish secretary will get a computer (and a salary) and not have to contribute one iota to our community's main job: to worship the Almight God. And then the cantors will have to discover where to order and purchase liturgical texts, books that nobody will train them on anyway - then get chastised if they screw up. How many pastors think well enough to give complimentary copies of books to their cantors? I have heard many seminarians question why they have to take chant class if such things will be taken care of by the cantor, but these are the SAME priests cantors have to work with when we have issues or problems. How many cantors have regularly scheduled meetings with their pastors concerning scheduling and liturgical planning (including study of the Typicon)? How many cantors rely on cheat-sheets or home-brewed hymns set to music notation based only on what they know? Several of our missions have been sent old "High Mass" editions (they were free) rather than up-to-date versions. Read: Lack of investment. This was allowed to happen; it was no accident. It is a result of a complete FAILURE, an absolute and inexcusible failure of certain people to exercise their fiduciary duties to support an important ministry to the church. There is no reason for why so many of our liturgical services, tones and hymns have gone the way of the Dodo Bird. Apparently, no one was watching the farm while our traditions escaped through the broken fences of Latinization and pure laziness and ignorance. We are harvesting what was previously sown. Can a parish actually (and comfortly) sing the hymns using the Podoben, Samohlasen and Bolhar tones? If not, then it is no wonder. If we don't celebrate our proper services such as Vespers and Matins then we will never learn them. I don't think the early church fathers had only Chrysostom's liturgy in mind when they thought 'liturgy.' Mediocrity rules when standards, formation, resources and education is lacking. Maybe we can now begin to exchange a few pot-luck dinners and reverse raffles for a few chant classes? Probably not. Chant doesn't bring in any income, therefore forget it. Unfortunately, the volunteer cantors who loves his or her church and wishes to see it continue and do a good job are the ones who often get blamed and ridiculed. The downfall of the cantor ministry and our liturgical chant is a classic case study for everything that can go wrong. In business, there are the consumers who buy one's product or service and those who only invest in the company's stock. Who are we serving when we worry and plan around the bingo attendees and the dinner guests and such but not the parishioners who actually will show up for liturgy to worship God? We bitch and complain about the poor music at times, but because the ministry isn't practical in keeping the church functioning it is ignored, if not forgotten. Yet, the people who are coming for more than another pot-luck or parish fundraiser, will hear the singing while trying to follow it as worshipping Christians. It is a ministry of humility; one gets it from both sides of the iconostasis! Our church cannot continue to run on the pathetic and asinine assumption that it is simply the people's responsibility to provide a good cantor without reciprocal obligations, communication, and team-work from the other side of the iconostasis. We end up becoming a 'Tone 8 Church' or a 'Tone 4 Church' because that is what the pastor knows and sometimes they like to dominate the cantor's job too and so the people then end up having two competing cantors to follow, thus promoting even more confusion. Naturally, they will follow the pastor. With all our technology and means of communication, one would think that we would take advantage of it and promote our wonderful chant. But then again it might interfere in other parish activities and committee meetings about things that really don't matter anyway? BTW, who is going to bring the potato salad at the next parish pot-luck?

At least our parish lawns look nicely landscaped!


But this is getting of the topic of the thread and I run the risk of bursting a blood vessel. Sorry. :p

Cantor Joe

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Well, I think folks have given us alot of different parish situations and possible models. I would only state that this matter is not a big deal either way.

I did want to repeat the situation I believe reported here beore the crash of a young man of our faith who was mentally handicapped and clearly not a potential vocation but who was allow to be an altar server, which was a great joy to him. I would hope the "altar boys are only for potential priests" rule would never be applied to him.

I'm also pleased to hear some of our parish have an ample supply of altar boys. I must be honest, I have rarely found that the case in our parishes except for a few suburban ones. Good for them they have such young families!

I am still inclined to my view that the parish president and trustees should serve in the lay liturgical roles as the people need to see their lay leaders.


K.

Kurt, Parish president???

Kurt,

"I would hope the "altar boys are only for potential priests" rule would never be applied to him."

That is just a stupid comment! There is no need to take what I said to the nth degree to analize it.


To those in favor of allowing women behind the Icon Screen:


There has always been a clear Separation between the gender roles in the Church. This separation dates back to the time of the Holy of Holies.

It is clear by the act of creation that God wants us to play separate roles. The Bible speaks of this separation many times.

We should accept this separation with humble hearts and have trust in God. Who are we to Quesiton God?

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]