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Ray,

It seems that up until the 9th century the Byzantine Church had deaconesses. And they were ordained by laying on of hands. They also communed at the altar by some accounts. Who are we to question the Church fathers?

I'm personally not really in favor of altar girls for the reason that some have stated: it can cause tension with the little boys. However, as many people here know, I am outspokenly in favor of deaconesses--the ordained, major order, communion at the altar, and stick a stole on them variety. (of course I follow the Church's teaching that there can not be women priests.)

anastasios

anastasios

"It seems that up until the 9th century the Byzantine Church had deaconesses."

Perhaps the Byzantine Church was wrong to have deaconesses and after the 9th century they corrected there wrongs. Clearly, deaconesses could be seen as going against the will of God.

After all the Byzantine Church has never been infalliable.

God Bless!

Glory to Jesus Christ,

As I understand it, deaconesses were NOT female deacons, but usually the wives of deacons that led other Church projects, but were not taking the part of a deacon in the Liturgy. God Bless.

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!
http://YourCatholic.com

In the Byzantine East, deaconesses were widows, not the wives of deacons.

It is easy to do some homework on this issue, via the internet.

Of course, Catholics, both of the East and the West, disagree on this issue with the Orthodox, but we already have ordained deaconesses serving the faithful within the Church of Greece and many American Greek Orthodox laywomen are solidly in favor of the order of deaconess and setting aside females to serve the altar of Christ.

Of course, none of these issues have any influence upon Catholicism, since we are autonomous communities in Christ and, most likely, shall be for generations to come.

Ephraim

Just a couple comments.

I think anastasios is right, or at least a considerable body of evidence exists that the ealry Christian deaconesses were female deacons. Since we know they were ordained, it seems clear they were not simple the spouses of deacons.

I wanted to apologize to RC@work when reading his statement, but in reading further, I'm not sure he will accpet my apology.

The example of the mentally handicapped altar boy was not meant to imply that RC@W was saying that encouragement to consider the priesthood was the singular principle for altar boys. I had thought we both held that this was a legitimate factor is choosing altar servers.

But then in reading further, I am lead (maybe wrongly) to think that his position is to maintain highly define gender roles and employing the anicent Hebrew rationale for women being prohibited from the Temple.

I will be honest (and I think repetitive). I can accept the social custom of using the parish boys for servers, but I simply don't accept all of that Old Testament menstrual blood/women are inferior thinking. If elements of the Catholic Churh still hold these beliefs, I would hope they would be abandoned.

Best to all,

K.

The Myrrhbearers of the Church of the Resurrection-Jerusalem

www.stnina.org/97sp/97sp-karras-jerus.htm [stnina.org]

Deaconesses also served (with deacons) in the Church of the Resurrection (Holy Sepulchre).

Dear RomanCatholic@Work,

Another site for gay and lesbian eastern Christians you might also be interested in is

http://www.axios.net

That is the web address for the Southern California chapter of Axios, which is the founding chapter.

When I first started posting here, I noticed others used a web address. However, I then learned the moderator disapproved, so I stopped.

But thank you for your inquiry. I'm happy to share any other information on gay/lesbian eastern Christians. Or you can email me privately, if you prefer.

God bless you too!


axios

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

If it is approved by the Canons, the bishop and the pastor I would have no problem with female servers...no matter what anyone else had to say about it.
Don

Ray,

Perhaps.

But how could it be seen as going against the will of God? Remember, I clearly am NOT in support of women priests. Jesus only ordained men. But the diaconate was instituted by the Apostles--and as such could even be surpressed. Or given to women. Or a fourth order could be created. These things are changeable. The reason of course that the female diaconate died out is because there were no more nude adult women to baptise!

anastasios

Dear a RomanCatholic@Work:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

You responded to Anastasios:
"It seems that up until the 9th century the Byzantine Church had deaconesses."

Perhaps the Byzantine Church was wrong to have deaconesses and after the 9th century they corrected there wrongs. Clearly, deaconesses could be seen as going against the will of God.

After all the Byzantine Church has never been infalliable."


Dear brother, that is not how the Eastern Orthodox Church sees it. Eastern Orthodoxy does not accept the infallibility of one person (i.e. His Holiness the Pope) but rather has held since its earliest days that it is the Church and the Church alone that is infallible.

What constitutes infallibility is one of the two basic issues that separates the Orthodox from being in communion with the His Holiness the Pope. This topic has been widely discussed and both sides presented in previous Byzanntine Forum discussions.

To the Orthodox, the historical ordination to Deaconess did not ever lead to the priesthood. If one buys this line of thinking, ordination to deaconess leads to priestly ordination, one buys into the feminist arguement for ordination of women to the priesthood. As the historical deaconess was the ending ordination for women in their ministry to women and the church---priesthood was never the issue. The Orthodox Church continues to ordain a small number of Deaconesses, even today. As anastasios has noted ---historically, Deaconesses are recorded as having served in the Patriarchates of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Constantinople. The Orthodox Church has several Women Saints who served Their Lord as Deaconesses. St. John Chrysostom had over 80 of them serving at his Patriarchal Cathedral in his lifetime---he often spoke of their Holy ministry.

The Deaconess was never a ministry in the West, that I can find. In the Roman Catholic Church, the issue is dead, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has said it will not happen.

I encourage you to review the past forum discussions, you will find them very enlightening---I did.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Thomas and All,

I read up on Deaconess in the Byzantine Church after all of the comments that was posted. I found that indeed there were Deaconess. However, from the information I gathered the Deaconess were NOT allowed behind the Icon screen. I have no problem with Deaconess but they should NOT be allowed on the altar. We have O.T. Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and God's basic creation as evidence that Men and Women share two different roles in life. This of course does NOT imply that women are lesser than men in anyway. After all wasn't St. Mary Magdalene allowed to be the first to witness Christ resurrection?

I see a lot of liberal mentality in the above post. Which leds me to the question are all of you Ex-Hippies? You know, "Down with the Man" and all? Are you trying to suggest that women should be allowed on the altar?

Finally, this is a Byzantine CATHOLIC forum. Therefore, WE (Byzantines, Latins, etc.) all believe in the infalliablity of the Holy Father.

Axios,

Thanks for the information but I am not interested in any further information on Gay/Lesbian Catholics/Orthodox. Further, I would humbly request that you please refrain from mentioning any issue on sexuality when addressing me.

God Bless!

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Deaconesses did/do commune within the Altar with their fellow deacons.

That is the Byzantine tradition.

ER

Actually it was Mary Magdalene who was the first witness to the resurection. St. Margaret Mary came a wee bit later.

Not getting into the female ordination thing, I still find it fascinating that out of all the Levitical prohibitions & requirements, just about the only one we've hung onto like grim death is the one about us bloody unclean womenfolk. Walk on a grave lately?

Anyway, everybody knows that women aren't allowed behind the iconostasis. Except to clean.

Cheers,


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

This is what I found out from voithia.org http://www.voithia.org/content/qmpCWINWOR3.htm:

"What is noteworthy, however, is that she is ordained during the liturgy after the completion of the anaphora (which is when the deacon is also ordained) and, significantly, she is ordained in the altar area. She receives communion in the altar at the end of the line of clergy, after which the bishop gives her the chalice, which she then returns to the altar. She does not give communion to the laity as the deacon does. Nevertheless, the differences in ordination rites are relatively minor; it is clear that the ordination of the deaconess is modeled on that of the deacon. This is important because several modern scholars, both Orthodox and Catholic, are attempting to assert -- despite this evidence -- that women were never ordained into the clergy, and especially not into the higher clergy.(10)"

We start seeing differences, "She does not give communion to the laity as the deacon does." between a deaconesses and a deacon.

I found on EWTN:

www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT [ewtn.com]

"The First Council of
Orange decreed in 441 that "deaconesses are absolutely not to be ordained; and if there
are still any of them, let them bow their head under the benediction which is given to
the congregation.""


Also, I found on odox.net a comment about deaconesses:

www.odox.net/Orthodox-History.htm [odox.net]

"There were also lesser ministries such as those of the Readers, Subdeacons, Acolytes, and Deaconesses."

Again calling the order a lesser ministry.


I found on PetersNet:

www.petersnet.net/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=141 [petersnet.net]

"The Council of Epaon, c. 517 AD said: "We completely reject the consecration of widows, whom they call deaconesses, from our region... .""

Finally, on our beloved Byzantines.net I found:

www.byzantines.net/epiphany/diaconate.htm [byzantines.net]

"1) In the early Eastern Church, women were selected as "deaconesses" whose function was limited to the catechesis and care of women and children, and preparing women for baptism and assisting therewith. At no time were they ordained or admitted to a liturgical function."


With this Minor research I would conclude that deaconesses was an ordaination of title alone with no real responsiblities. That is just my opinion.


God Bless!

My sister Sharon,

Personally, I have always regreted the lax observance of the OT prohibition of polyester suits. Please pray for a return to Tradition.

Kurt