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First,
I wish to comment on the evolution of this thread.

What started out as a request for advice as to if something that was said should bother me.

Also as a request for information on female altar servers and female readers in a parish setting. In a parish where women have not requested these roles, in a parish where there is no lack of male servers or readers.

The second request was answered, no one really answered the first one, should it have bothered me?

As to the evolution of this thread, what was a discussion on female server and equality between the sexes in the parish church has now appeared to become a discussion on deaconesses in the Orthodox Church.

I also have a comment/question for Thomas

By the above quote, you seem to lump all Orthodox into one Church. I thought it was just the Greek Orthodox Church ordaining deaconesses. ROCOR does this too?

I think to clarify things, when we have a discussion, we must state which of the Orthodox Churches we are talking about, I do not think it is correct to lump them all together with the name The Orthodox Church as there is really no such entity.

You did say, but in an earlier thread someone stated that the Deaconess was never used within the slavic orthodox churches either.

David

Just to clarify:

The councils you have quoted were by-and-large local councils of the West with no universal authority, and therefore, no authority within the East.

As previously pointed out, the order of deaconess within the Orthodox Eastern Catholic Church was of a different nature than that within the Latin Western Church.

Those who are authorities within the Orthodox Catholic Church of Greece, as well as the Orthodox Catholic Greek bishop, Kallistos Ware, would certaily disagree with your (as you freely and honestly admit) "opinion."

The faithful of the Orthodox Apostolic Greek Catholic Church of Greece and the Diaspora certainly will adhere to the expert "opinion" of their Christ-enlightened espiscopi.

ER

Dear +Ray,

Actually, Deaconnesses were not "ordained" at all, but blessed since they did not have sacramental Orders.

If one could prove that they ever did, THEN all arguments against women priests would fall by the wayside!

I think that Mother Sharon is making a good point and we need to reflect on the role of women in the Church, historically and in contemporary times.

Alex

The order of deaconess is an apostolic order which is established within the canons of the Universal Orthodox communion.

It is not an order limited to the Greek Orthodox Church, or any other single Orthodox Church.

Any Orthodox Church can revive the order on its own volition since, in the East, the order was never suppressed juridicially/canonically.

Look for it to be revived within the Church of Finland.

ER

Dear Ephraim,

Yes, the Church of Finland will definitely revive it.

There are Greek Deaconnesses who now currently serve in parishes in Greece. Other Churches have them as well.

They do great work also in the continental Lutheran churches.

They are not "female deacons" but, as you have said, possess their own Apostolic status and role.

Alex

You are incorrect. The deaconess was ordained according to the exact and same ordination service of a deacon.

The deaconess received the cheritonia as do deacons.

Bishop Kallistos would disagree with your opinion and the bishops of Greece, who really are experts on this subject, would disagree with your layman's opinion.

Deaconesses in Greece do have a sacramental function, the same as that of Orthodox deacons, since they distribute Holy Communion.

ER

No, they would NOT! How many times do people have to cite the evidence that deaconsesses WERE ordained at the same place in the liturgy as deacons and received communion at the altar?!

In the Byzantine Church, the diaconate was never seen as "just" a stepping stone to priesthood! Allowing deaconesses DOES NOT equate with female priests!

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

The fact that deaconnesses were consecrated at the same spot during the Liturgy et al. does not indicate their participation in the sacramental Orders of the Priesthood.

Their order is qualitatively different from the role of a Deacon.

The fact also that writers use imprecise theological language doesn't change the matter either.

Can even one Orthodox or Catholic writer be cited who says, clearly and unequivocably, that the Deaconness has the same sacramental powers and shares in the ministerial Priesthood of Christ in the SAME way that a Deacon does?

If it can, then if a woman can be an actual Deacon, what is preventing her from being a Priest - or a Bishop or Patriarch for that matter?

If I'm wrong on the Deaconness matter, I will change my view, certainly.

But that doesn't change the fact that if women can be ordained as Deacons in the full sacramental sense of that role, then it is a fact that they already share in the ministerial Priesthood of Christ and that the Church does acknowledge that women can be priests.

And I challenge anyone to demonstrate differently.

But let's stick to the facts, guys, and please keep any planned invective against me to a minimum .

Alex

Alex,

As I posted earlier, the reason that I believe that women can become deacons and not priests, is because the priesthood is part of the episcopacy, that was instituted by Christ.

The diaconate, on the other hand, while coming into being 10-20 years after Pentecost, was nevertheless an invention of the Apostles (with the influence of the Holy Spirit, of course).

That being said, if the Apostles' successors wish to get rid of the diaconate, they could; if they wished to add another major order, they could (such as chorepiscopos--once a bishop, now only the equivelent of a mitred archimandrite).

And if they want to allow women to serve, they can.

As far as if ancient deaconesses distributed communion: perhaps not liturgically, but why not now? The Latins allow non-ordained people to distribute communion. So what would be wrong with an ordained women deacon?

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Well, all three orders, Deacon, Priest and Bishop, represent a share in the Ministerial Priesthood of Christ.

It is true that Priests act as representatives of their Bishops, but they actually have no share in the sacramental reality of the episcopal state.

The fact is that deacons do share in the Ministerial Priesthood of Christ.

The arguments against women becoming ministerial priests then must apply to the diaconate as such.

If not, then what is barring them from becoming priests or bishops?

There are also roles that can be taken on by the Laity (members of the Royal Priesthood) that are done by those who are specifically consecrated to do them including Readers, Subdeacons, Eucharistic Ministers, what have you.

The point stands - if deaconneses have a share in the Ministerial Priesthood as "female deacons," then the same theological justification to allow this can be used to allow them to be ordained as Priests and consecrated as Bishops.

If the diaconate was not a share in the Ministerial Priesthood of Christ, then there would be no problem whatever.

Alex

Ephraim Reynolds,

You said, "The deaconess was ordained according to the exact and same ordination service of a deacon."

The evidence I found stated differently. For example. "She (deaconess) does not give communion to the laity as the deacon does."

If I am wrong I will say I am wrong. However, you have not presented any evidence to contradict my previous statements. Until you can show other wise I will stick to my opinion that you are Wrong.

God Bless!

Alex,

We seem to have run into a language problem here. Perhaps Dr. John wants to help us out since he is the language expert?

Please define what you mean by the term "ministerial priesthood" and also "share in the ministerial priesthood." Don't we all share in the priesthood of Christ in some fashion? Or are you using the adjective "ministerial" to limit the application of that principle?

Thanks,

anastasios

Ephraim Reynolds,

Here are a couple of quotes taken from your past replies;


Now what I have to say to these.

First you stated the the councils pointed out were councils of the Western Church, then you point out that order of deaconess is established within the canons of the Universal Orthodox communion (by the way, where can I find these canons?) so then any Orthodox Church can revive the order on its own.

What you forget, is that as Byzantine Catholics we share in with the Western Church. You speak of the Orthodox and what they can do. So?

The discussion of deaconesses within the Byzantine Catholic Churches is not going to happen anytime soon, I believe.

Also, what of the point of the slavic orthodox churches never having used deaconesses?


David

Ray,

I believe Ephraim said that the deaconness was ORDAINED in the same fashion. he didn't say that once ordained, the functions were the same.

anastasios

Dear In Christ,

I don't agree with everything on this site, but here's some interesting evidence. If it is refutable, please do so. If not, then let's learn from the evidence:

http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/deac_dif.htm

http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/deac_ovr.htm

anastasios