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Dear Archlayperson Alex,

Per your comment about Bishop Kallistos:

"What is the attitude in the present-day Orthodox world towards the burning issue of the ordination of women? Orthodoxy certainly accepts that women can be ordained to the first of the Major Orders, the diaconate. In the ancient church women served as FEMALE DEACONS; and although in the west these deaconesses seem usually to have been regarded as "lay" rather than an 'ordained' ministry, in the Christian east they were blessed with the same prayers and according to EXACTLY the same rite as male deacons, so there are sound reasons to PLACE THEM ON THE SAME SACRAMENTAL LEVEL....The order of deaconesses has never been abolished in the Orthodox Church. .....MANY ORTHODOX TODAY WISH TO SEE THE FEMALE DIACONATE REVIVED, AS A MATTER OF GREAT URGENCY."---from The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos(of Diokleia) Ware (Penguin Press--1997--pages 292-293.)

That quote certainly clarifies Bishop Kallistos' position and that of my church, the Church of Greece.

But, our position on this issue has no bearing on the Catholic Church, East or West, just as the position of the Catholic Church, on this issue, has no bearing on the Holy Church of Greece or the Church of Kypros.

Peace (and enough said on this issue?)

ER

I have found that within the Latin Church considerable time is devoted to obedience and dissent issues. Among our people, I find we have more an understanding of the papacy along the lines of the authority of King Canute.

K.

Dear Kurt,

Yes indeed - don't you ?

And I commend you on that wonderful reference to King Canute!

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Archmentor Ephraim!

I accept your apology .

Yes, even though we lay people must be about our secular business, I did have a chance to come across that quote . . .

And I've had a chance to speak with Greek bishops myself about it, including one Metropolitan.

They told me that while the Greek Church has bishops who promote "theologoumena" or theological opinions (but I know you know that), they are simply that.

This is a view of Kallistos Ware that is not universally shared by other Orthodox.

I think most of what Ware has said reflects his own views on the matter, including his view that Deaconnesses were "female deacons."

Ware doesn't fare very well in the Orthodox Church these days. He also believes the Filioque expresses the Orthodox faith in the Trinity. And some Greek Churchmen are beginning to ask if he is becoming more Orthodox or returning to his Anglican roots.

So I guess they're dismissing him as "Just an Anglican convert."

As I am having too much fun with this, at your expense, regrettably, and since I am so happy with my recent home purchase, I will, from now on, agree to anything further you have to say.

+ Alexios
Archlayperson

I don't know what else is in this thread, because I'm currently reading it, and haven't gone farther than this...but this is not the first time this point has arisen. Since when did the "Early Church" have "Icon Screens"?? I thought they only came around in like the eighth century...surely that's earlier "Early Church" than we are now...but not terribly early. So, if I'm wrong, and the Early Church had Icon Screens, then I'm wrong, and let me know. But if I'm right, isn't this whole icon screen reasoning a moot point?

Dear Catholicos,

You are right, Oriental Orthodox Mentor!

As you know, the Sanctuary was really curtained off and a number of Oriental Churches still have only a curtain, like our Armenian Churches, even though there is a curtain behind the Royal Doors of Byzantine Iconostases.

Our Friend's point was to symbolize the Sanctuary as a place where women were forbidden to enter, as was noted in early Church texts.

And if women did try to enter, it was "curtains" for them in more ways than one .

(Am I good or what? )

Alex

Very good, Alex, very good...and don't forget that we Syrians continue to use curtains also. Most of the time I've seen these as only curtains made of precious cloth. But I've seen a picture of the church of Saint Mark's Monastery in Jerusalem (Syrian Orthodox), and their curtain seems to have icons on the curtain...cloth icons.

Dear Catholicos,

Yes, I've seen those too, Oriental Mentor (or just "OM" for short )

Russians have the tradition of sewing cloth icons into their coats, a tradition handed down by the Tsars.

I bought one in New York some years back, at a store not too far from Ground Zero.

The icon is one of our Lady of OstraBrama and it has special meaning for me today.

Alex

Many happy years in your new home.

Xronia pola kai apape.

But Alex, Bishop Kallistos is merely expressing the convictions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the convictions of the episcopi of the Church of Greece who had to approve of the ordination of the deaconesses serving within the convents.

As you know, any unilateral ordinations on the part of those bishops of the Church of Greece who did ordain deaconesses would have separated them from the Church.

There is a great deal of sympathy within ALL Greek-speaking Orthodox churches for the renewal of the order of deaconesses.

Congratulations!

Figuratively, I have just tossed a handful of coins into your new home; for good luck and prosperity.

American coins! (Better exchange rate!)

ER

There were No Curtains in Hagia Sophia. However, there was a Iconostases and there were Deaconesses. My point is that the Deaconesses were not allowed behind the Royal Doors.

If I am wrong please present evidence.

Dear Ephraim,

First of all, thank you for your kind blessing of the coins in Greek, our mother language!!

Even though I am Eastern Catholic, I love and venerate (and pray for) the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Whatever he says on the matter is good enough for me!

I look forward to our next planned trip to Hellas!

Alex

Dear +Ray,

Even if you were wrong, which I don't believe you are, you'd have to find someone other than myself to tell you.

It was Constantine the Great who said that even if he saw error in a priest, he would cover it up with his imperial mantle.

If I had a mantle like that, I'd do the same for you!!

Alex

RC,

The deaconesses were ordained within the Altar or, "on the other side of the iconostasis," and they communed "within the Altar," etc., just as the male deacons.

Today, within Greece, the deaconesses who serve their monastic communities receive Holy Communion within the Altar, when the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, i.e., they follow the ancient practice of the Church of Constantinople.

ER

www.womanpriest.org/traditio/deac_order.htm [womanpriest.org]

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

Ephraim Reynolds,

And your evidence on this subject is based on a website that believes women should be allowed to become priest plus a questionable Orthodox Bishop? Is that all you have?

I think I rest my case.

God Bless!

Hello everyone!

To try and migrate back to the original thought of the thread...

...I am but a simple Roman Catholic, and am unaware of the traditions of other churches, even other RC churches. It seems that the church that I frequented was gaining a rather apathetic tone from the children that attended CCD, who were normally the ones who became alter servers. It seemed that when I was in that age range, the apathy hit a peak, and we didnt really have anyone to help the priest except for maybe one young man who certainly could not carry everything at once. When Father came to our classroom to ask the students if any boys wanted to help him at the Alter, there was dead silence. I raised my hand along with a female friend of mine asking if we could help, since there was a certain "dry spell" in the male department. He said we could, and I helped out as an Alter Server for a few years. The masses were wonderful, even the Easter Vigils which went down to the late hours of the night. But to have the entire church be illuminated with candlelight from each and every individuals small candle in the church, it was a beautiful sight to see, and made me feel wonderful. I even got chosen to have my feet washed for Holy Thursday :rolleyes: I was the only server who didn't have embarrisingly "wholy socks."

I'm not sure if female alter servers do still exist in my church, I think the choir was the one position that was encouraged to girls. I think that if a young girl has a desire to help the priest in his service, and help is needed, then there should not be a problem with allowing her to serve. Theres a carving hanging on a wall near the elevator in my church that has a picture of Jesus with children of many races, both male and female, reading "Let the little children come to me" It seems to be a miracle in and of itself when a child is truly interested in helping and serving during mass instead of falling asleep during the homily, which one alter BOY did once, and was quite embarassing.

If the services are not needed desperately in a church, then I don't think there is a need to advertise women to do a job that needs no advertising. Wow, that sentence looks funny. But, I think that it is understandable to worry about the aggressiveness of a chairman to support something that should need no support really, and should come from people, of any gender, that trully wish to learn how they can help and serve. If female servers are shunned, that's another story, but this is just my experiences...

MsGuided