www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization The most fantastic Pascha of my life

Friends,

I'm stunned by what the Holy Spirit is doing in our parish. Not only are we growing numerically but we are reclaiming our Orthodox heritage. This Holy Week and Pascha have brought a life long dream to fruition.

My entire adult life has been a movement toward traditional apostolic Christianity. For years I've dreamed of worshipping in a Church without pews. I preached on the merits of worshipping without pews for several years before I left the Protestant minister. My appeals with met with either stunned silence or mockery.

Yet, this dream has come true in our parish.

At Vespers last Wednesday Father had all of the pews removed. The Holy Spirit moved upon the people and they all clamoured for Father to keep it that way. He said with tongue in cheek, "since you have twisted my arm I'll do it." This Easter Sunday we had some pews placed around the Church but there were far more open spaces than regimented. The processions were much more fulsome. People were actually able to move about during liturgy. Greetings were given, not by everyone, but by many when they are prescribed in the liturgy. Father's sermon was full of joy as he went about talking mainly with children.

This was the greatest Easter Sunday of my life!!

Christ is Risen!!

Dan Lauffer

If only other churches would follow!

Great News Dan!

My sentiments EXACTLY!

Father Loya and the congregation deserve a lot of credit for the courage it required to make the move. Many of the parishioners have been Byzantines all their lives and like the rest of us, have always been "pew bound". No more standing just in the back, the choir was excellent and the atmosphere was special and joyful, I was ALL SMILES for three hours! It was a fantastic Pascha for me.

By the way, I want all the forum members to know that Dan has talents even beyond what must seem obvious to us on the net. He has a fantastic singing voice! Ever think of recording Dan?

Indeed He is Risen!!

Michael

Michael,

I was hoping that you'd post. What a "Divine" Divine Liturgy! I wonder what kind of heat Father will receive for this. One of the many things I enjoy about Byzantine Catholicism is the respect paid to the clergy. It is rarely seen in Protestantism. He says things and is respected for them that I said and was nearly crucified for saying. No, not jealousy. I enjoy so much what I longed for all those years and I don't have to take the heat for trying them. If I had moved one pew I would have been called on the carpet.

I was in the choir for about a year or more. But my teaching schedules prevents it. Ah well. Thanks for the kind words.

Dan L

Johan,

Bring your priest up to visit sometime. Don't worry. It's not snowing.

Michael,

Have you told Father how much you appreciate what he's done? He will probably get some heat for it.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

Christ is Risen!

Congratulations to you and your parish family!

I believe your church is the second 'Parmasian' church to chuck the pews in recent days. I hear rumbles that a few more will probably catch the wave. We shall see.

Don't you love growing pains?

Thanks to you, your pastor, and all the others for becoming a beacon for some of us still caught in a spiritual funk. At least your parish isn't trying to (re)institute inorganic devotions like some for lack of better sense and direction.

Indeed, He is Risen!

Joe Thur

Dear Friends,

St Nicholas Church is very traditional and has pews.

The floor of this former Presbyterian Church is slanted and without the pews, some of the older people just might fall forward . . .

Personally, "to pew or not to pew" is not the real question.

Neither is how many Reform Jews bringing prayer shawls to synagogue an indication of a conservative trend . . .

Sorry, but I find such issues of externalities a non-starter.

Now you can go ahead and beat me about the calves and ankles . . .

Alex

Alex,

Christ is risen!

Can't you just be happy with Dan's experience? At his church, Liturgy happened without straight jackets.

Pews spread people out. When the folks at our parish retired to the social hall for the blessing of baskets their voices sang together in unison. We were packed together, so close like a real family sitting on the living room sofa enjoying family night. The voices resounded better since they blended so near each other.

Pews separate people as well as their voices.

People also find reason to sit on their ***** when Communion (Christ) is being administered and when the Resurrection Troparion is being sung.

But you'll never find them sitting on their duffs when a judge enters the courtroom. Oh, No! Never that.

But for the presence of Christ? Of course. Pews give us excuse to worship on our *****!

Moses wasn't instructed to sit on his *** when he approached the burning bush.

What is it about our ***** that we have to make them feel comfy all the time? So we can worship with our head?

Christ comes first, not our *****.

I am happy for Dan's parish. Not every church is built on an incline, of course.

As for 'externalities' not being 'starters': you just described the purpose of a pew.

Bowing to your wisdom. BANG! [hitting head on pew] Ouch! Darn pew! I guess a high-five will do instead.

Indeed he is risen!

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Such language! Even if it is blanked out! And during Bright Week! (You just don't like me, do you?)

All I'm saying is:

1) I'm happy for Dan, I'm always happy for Dan.

2) I think some of our Eastern revivalists lose their pastoral perspective when it comes to externalities like pews as if it were a litmus test of "Orthodoxy." Talk about straight-jackets!

3) Many Orthodox churches I've been in have pews and one OCA parish has very comfortable seats with padding etc. I don't recall people striking their breasts and rending their clothes at the sight of these.

4) Perhaps this is a Ruthenian issue. I don't know. And I don't care to find out more about it. Ukrainian jumpiness is more than I can bear, without adding Ruthenian jumpiness to it - and during the Paschal season.

Sorry I mentioned it. I'll know to add this topic to my list of "don't dare talk about these on this forum."

Happy Pascha!

Alex

Alex, I agree with you 100% on this issue. The Divine Liturgy in my opinion is a TRADITION that we must treasure in its fullness...but pews or no pews are a tradition with a small t, it may be nice not to have them, but does it really matter in the long run? Our salvation is not based on whether we sit, stand or kneel to pray. IMHO it is more important to teach people to pray, not the stature they use while doing it! And like you I get really antsy when I see things like this being used as measure of "orthodoxy" in a parish. My parish has pews and doesn't have an iconostasis, but you would not find a more orthodox priest and parish. Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Rite on! (I haven't said that in some time,so you'll have to forgive me . . .).

Some of our converts really get off on such things, almost going out of their way in a sense.

My friend who is going to be ordained was like that. He would Cross himself at the drop of a hat, everywhere, coffee shops, you name it.

One Polish lady in such a coffee shop saw him make the sign of the Cross and yelled out: "Vat a vanderful boy you are!"

We were driving when he crossed himself and I looked around for a church or whatever.

He then told me: "See that hill over there? There's a cemetery behind it!"

What would he say if he saw pews?

I don't want to think about it . . .

We should also remember that when it comes to prostrations, there were people who called attention to their "piety" by banging their heads on the floor in an audible manner.

But everyone in my parish, save for the frail elderly, gets out of their pews and makes prostrations.

I don't sit during Liturgy, but many of the frail elderly who are around me do.

I don't care if there are pews or not. But they do.

A blessed Pascha!

Alex

"Anathema 'Sit':
Some Reflections on Pews in Eastern Christian Churches and their Effects on Worshippers"
Father Andriy Chirovsky Ph.D
(Diakonia, Vol.XV, No.2, 1980 at 173):

"Pews are basically unsuited to the fundamental liturgical postures.

"I defy anyone but a contortionist to make a prostration in the middle of a pew.

"We make frequent prostrations in the Eastern Churches, not because it is required, but because our bodies have something to say to God, to neighbour, and to our very selves, just as our minds and our speech do.

"And yet our bodies - half our earthly selves - are sentenced to silence in a church with pews."

In other words, our prayer and worship requires a freedom and space that pews do not allow.

***

The Old Believer church in Erie Pennsilvania has a wide open nave and way off to the sides towards the back they have five rows of benches on either side. No back on the bench means no relaxing. When it comes time to do prostrations (which they do constantly) the old people sitting at the benches put their prayer mat on the bench in front of them and do a "standing poklon". But you never see any young people at the benches. When it comes time for a homily or long spiritual readings the faithful sit on the floor (as they do at my church as well. It is a nice practice and reminds me of Jesus preaching to his disciples.

Good work!
"Behold the Bridegroom comes at midnight..."

ilya

Alex,

Just trying to humor you, ***uming you have a sense of humor. I just can't think of any other reason for pews.

Yet, if I attend an intense ballgame, the people tend to stand most of the time even though one can 'see' the ballgame just as good if everyone just sat down. Yet I rarely, if ever, hear about people complaining they can't enjoy their seat they paid a lot to use while standing for the game.

Why such opposites in our lives?

Christ is risen and in our midst! Why the couch potato approach to worship? Maybe our sensibilities have migrated from the temple to the ballpark?

These opposites interest me.

For instance, people think it is only respectful and proper to stand when a judge enters the courtroom. (assuming people stand in Canadian courts too) Yet, ask people to rise from their pews when Communion is being administered is just too much. One gets strange faces. I mean, why should I stand when Christ is in our midst while the Resurrection Troparion is being sung? This is a little too much, no?

Another case of opposites: We pay big bucks to get a 'front row' seat at a concert or game. Yet, we take the back pew in church.

Is it about money?

Christ is Risen!
... Have a seat.

Join us in prostrations!
... Bonk! There's that pew again.

Christ is in our midst!
... Where's the channel changer?

What gives when we reduce worship-liturgy to a mental exchange?

Pews = non-starter externalities

Pews do not lend themselves to liturgy (read: work). They allow us to sit down on the job. Our comfort comes first. We are selfish and lazy. They are a product of a non-eucharist tradition where the act of worship has been reduced to mere cognitions. Those who say that "it doesn't matter" are really saying "I like pews and the non-starting externalities they provide me."

Was Fr. Chirovsky a Ruthenian?

Joe

Dear Reverend Cantor Joseph!

I have no problem with a "pew-less" approach . . .

I agree with what you say. But if you can come into some of our parishes and implement it all without a hitch, then I'll do a prostration in front of you personally! And as many as you like!

As for my sense of humour, you've seen some of my jokes . . .

When I first suggested some Eastern reforms to my own parish council, I was greeted with cat-calls, arguments etc. Long-time friends stopped talking to me etc.

And I'm not a priest, deacon, cantor, psalt or pepper . . .

So I admire those who can enact reforms and get away with a modicum of nail and bite marks.

And if you can pull it off, my hat is off to you, Big Guy!

And people can bonk their noggans on the floor just as much as on a pew . . . Good thing the Old Believers have those pillows . . .

Bowing low before you I remain,

your servant,

Alex

Dear Ilya,

No one is disagreeing with Fr. Prof. Andrij.

But we don't all attend a parish like yours. I'm not promoting pews. I'm simply stating a fact about our people in many parishes.

Ultimately, it's not so big an issue in a parish that simply wants to hold on to the pews.

It's like the three-bar Cross. If people don't like it, they don't like it.

But we like it!

Alex