www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization St. Elias Services

Dear kl, I was ordained acolyte, cantor and tonsured reader in one ceremony. The Trebnik indicates a unified service for these three, and the Orthodox (outside of communion with Rome) also combine these together.

Although traditionally subdiaconate was conferred separately, and has a separate prayer for installation from the Trebnik, it is often combined with the previous three in one ceremony.

Even the ROCOR Archieraticon which follows a very "high" liturgical usage (even amongst Orthodox) indicates the possibility that all four "minor orders" (acolyte, cantor, reader and subdeacon) may be conferred by the bishop in the same ceremony, but it also gives the rubrics for when subdiaconate is conferred separately and indicates this is the more traditional practice.
By my request Bishop Michael (Wiwchar) ordained me to the subdiaconate separately from the first three minor orders.

In the tradition of the Great Church (Hagia Sophia) the "minor orders" were each conferred in a separate ceremony. There are other minor orders (such as door-keeper) which were present in the Great Church but have fallen into disuse.

Dear Diak,

Do Cantors and Readers wear the same garb in Church?

I too cannot hold a candle to you . . .

Alex

X.B.!

A wonderful Bright Tuesday to you all!


1. The ripidia are used in our parish for the little entrance and the gospel reading and when the bishop is there they are used in the great entrance as well. This is still a cathedral practice in most of the orthodox churches and done only when a bishop is present, however this practice is being brought back among some normal parishes in ROCOR (I know that Archpriest R. Lukianov of Lakewood NJ wrote an article about this). They are held and and waved above the Gifts by the deacon(s) during the anaphora.

2. Servers get a blessing at the beginning of the service from the priest as a sort of permission as do the cantor or choir director(s), bell ringers and others appointed for specific duties. Appart from this just being a nice ritual it also allows the priest to give them any last minute instructions/changes. The servers and deacons get a blessing before they unvest as a sort of dissmissal. This also ensures that everyone doesn't go flying off as soon as the final amen has been sung since most of the time there is still much to be done in terms of clean up after the service. You are not allowed to go until the priest says you are allowed to go, it has a kindof monastic feel to it.

3. I think it is unrealistic to ordain boys to a minor order. I think it is much better to have them learn everything first at an early age, and I don't think any bishop today would ordain a six year old.

KL,

KLIROS is spelled k-l-i-r-o-s (with all due respect). Krylos or krilos is a mistake commonly made by ukrainians because of the words similarity to the ukrainian word krilo or wing (referring to the side wings of the church). My father used to make the same mistake but I have finally got him to change. It comes from the same greek word as clergy or klir, as this is where the extra clergy would stand during the service. When a bishop does not serve he sits on a throne to the side in the kliros. This is considered a place of honour in the church.


cheers to all,

X.B.!

ilya

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

X.B.!

Well, my church doesn't use the ripidia at all, and I've never seen it used in a Toronto Ukie Catholic Church.

For them, "ripidia" is a request to say something twice, not having heard it the first time . . .

Good for your parish - just to see that used is worth the drive to Brampton!

And what about the bell-ringing for the creed and the Dostoyno Yest?

Where does that come from, Cantor Ilya?

Also, some Churches have small icons of Christ and the MOther of God on the sides of the Royal Doors that the priest venerates during censing.

Does your Church have that and can you explain that rite?

(Are you an ordained Cantor?)

Alex

I don't know of any differnce between reader/cantor/psalomschik. An ordained reader is supposed to wear a podryasnik and a stikhar (even though this is rearly done). The original readers vestment was a short or kratkiy phelon (we still use this but only during the ordination) this is a representation of that which is to come, his eventual ordination to priesthood.

ig

Christos Voskrese!!!

Ilya,

How was Pascha as St ELias?? Did everyone get soaked for Wet Monday????

It was a great year. Wonderful weather. We got a visiting deacon (James Bankston) completely soaked, riassa and all. It was quite good.

On bright monday all the clergy wore bright red vestments a la the north. very cool. Not quite zagorsk yet but getting there.

Hospodu Pomolimsa, rtsem vsi!
Khristos Voskrese!

It was great, if only my voice could have lasted a bit longer, I think its gonna take some time to recover.

ilya

Dear Ilya,

Again, could you explain about the bells during the Liturgy?

How many languages are used at your parish in the liturgy?

And does your parish give courses on how to become a cantor, altar server etc.?

I think I might qualify as a candle cleaner . . .

I just might . . .

Alex

Dear Ilya:

I have known for some time that the choir I currently conduct should probably have been called "Kliros" (or whatever transliteration you want to use) but the name is what it is with its built in Ukrainian fault. Hence my moniker.

I'm sorry if it bothers you.

Yours,

kl

And what about the bell-ringing for the creed and the Dostoyno Yest?

Where does that come from, Cantor Ilya?

Also, some Churches have small icons of Christ and the MOther of God on the sides of the Royal Doors that the priest venerates during censing.

Does your Church have that and can you explain that rite?

(Are you an ordained Cantor?)

Alex,

I have never found galician bell ruberics, but I have read and follow the standard vulgate ones. Yet in every set of rubrics I read, they all mention that it is common practice among molorusins (ukrainians) to strike the largest church bell once for every article of the Nicene Creed.
It is always struck nine times during the Hymn to the Mother of God, zadostoynik, or magnificat. On feasts we also ring the largest bell slowly during the Anaphora. Since there are usually people outside the church it calls their attention to what is happening inside. I am sure that in villages and monasteries those who were not able to attend would be able to follow the service by the tolling of the bell.

We have what my father calls "kissing icons" on either side of the Holy Doors. It would be difficult to kiss the main icons since they have oil lamps in front of them. Originally, the place that is now designated for the main icon of Christ was designated for the patron of the temple. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Alas, I am not ordained reader, but I still have a lot to learn (and the thing I cant't stand most are guys that get ordained that don't know anything). Before you take even the first steps of ordination, I believe you should know everyone elses duties and actions as perfectly as your own. This is the only way the liturgical "dance" can go perfectly without everybody stepping on each others toes. I am tired of telling ordained people what to do next and where to stand, they should learn this stuff in the seminary instead of focusing only the administration and philosophical fluff.
But then again, what do I know.

ilya

Alex,

Our services are better than any cantoring/serving courses offered anywhere in our church. We make it easy for anyone off the street to sing with us show up to all the services regularly and before yop know it you have memorized tones (samohlasny, resurrectional, kondak melodies, bulgarian, kievan, podobens, prokimens etc.) which your local cantor kept switching slightly every time he sang, making it impossible to sing along with him.

We have always had a steady stream of deacons and priests who after seminary or during siminary come on every possible occasion to serve and to learn the steps. We are a bootcamp for deacons especially. If you are not standing in the right spot, you will be told. My father will not take the kadylo from you until you offer it to him in the correct position etc. One learns very quickly.

They should just move the seminary to Brampton. HA!

Ilya

Christ is Risen!

I heard that at St. Elias on Bright Tuesday, that there was another Paschal Procession after Liturgy.

This time apparently, they processed to the Church cemetery, which is located on the Church property just behind the Temple.

My information is that they processed with the Paschal Foods (blessed on Paschal) and after a short Paschal Commemoration Service, shared bread, wine, meat, etc. right there in the cemetery!!!

Best of all (seems to me) was that the Procession apparently wound all through the cemetery, with Processional Cross, incensations, etc., singing the Paschal Tropar & Versicles, and the Priest greeted every single person buried there by Name with "XPICTOC BOCKPEC!!!"

Sounds so intense and touching! Apparently it brought tears to the eyes!

Does anyone have more info? And an explanation or two? I had never heard to sharing food there "with" the Reposed. It sounds like they really take the "Communion of Saints" seriously there! Is this a custom unique to this parish or is it a general ritual observed in Orthodoxy (whether "inComm" or not).

XPICTOS BOCKPECE!

And a joyous and exultant Bright Tuesday to all!

Herb

Isn't that the tradition of "Radonitza" The Day of Rejoicing??? It is like sharing the Paschal Joy with our friends and relatives who have gone before.

Christ is Risen!

I also heard that on Paskha, they fired of a bunch of fireworks and rockets during the Blessing of Paschal foods in the parish courtyard at St. Elias!

Does THAT ever sound cool!!!

Anyone know what that's all about?


dear Brian:

thanks for the post...

Sounds great! Can you tell me more?

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

Happy Bright Tuesday!

Herb

Dear all,

I must say, St. Elias appears to be a temple well worth a visit!

We used to vacation at Rice Lake, northeast of Toronto, but haven't trekked up there for a couple of years. If (when) we return, a side trip to Brampton appears in order!

And kudos to Father Protodeacon David Kennedy for the wealth of information he has provided on the website--all explained very nicely! This RC feels as if he has taken a university course in Byzantine liturgy--can I apply for credits? Hats (or skoufias) off to him!

Great site!

Martin