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CHRISTOS VOSKRES!

Hi Gang.....

Well, I REALLY don't know how to say this so, I guess I'll just let fly and see what you all have to say.

I literally told a man and his family to get out of our church on Sunday.

They were SSPX'ers and we first "noticed" them when the wife and daughter entered wearing those 1960's white lace chapel veils. They genuflected and then knelt in prayer. During the concecreation, they knelt also. The family didn't receive Holy Communion and very "up-set" with the singing of Christos Voskres and other hymns "po-nasemu".

After Liturgy as they were leaving, I asked if it was their first time in a Byzantine Church and the man said yes and wondered how long we had been "schismatics".

He was "up-set" with the fact that we didn't use the "filioque" during the Creed. We then proceeded to "discuss" this.

He then started with the use of OCS and not kneeling and some other things. I reminded him that he was in a Byzantine church and that we had "taking" back our traditions and customs as we were ordered to do by John Paul II and the 2nd Vatican Council.

Well, he went off like a rocket about how the Devil organized the 2nd Vatican Council and how John Paul II was the Devil...

Yes, I did loose it.

If I could have gotten my hands on an ikon I would have clocked him with it and would have tried to chase the demons out of him.

I looked him square in the eye and told he needed to leave that he did not belong there and to not come back.

I've told our priest and our deacon candidate about the family and to "be on the look-out" for them.

Now for my question.....

Was I right or wrong??

your thoughts please....

Paska Krasna nas vitajet...

mark

Did Father put you in charge of pastoral ministry in your parish church? I believe you should have referred them to the priest who IS pastorally responsible BEFORE, not AFTER you chased them away.

Yes, it was obvious that they had their own agendas, but you only met them at their level. Jesus was always confronted with the Sscribes and Pharisees with questions to trip him up. He took their agenda-driven questions to a new level they weren't quite ready for. The terms and the argument were not determined by his adversaries.

In the future, it would be healthy to simply listen to their frustrations no matter how escewed they are from the facts. There may be deep hidden anger resulting from poor pastoral care and/or experiences in their own church community. Their behavior in church only confirms that they are still packing their prejudices and ignorance. I know Protestants and Jews who are better examples of considerate guests and actually ask questions, unlike Tridentines and/or Latinized Greek Catholics.

Letting them speak to Father Pastor first would have given him an opportunity to convey to them why their past bad experiences of their church do not equate with their current and new experiences of your church. Such an encounter may help difuse their volatile sensitivity and preconceived notions. We get such folks now and then and some do learn. Some disappear before liturgy is over. We never yell at them or chase them away.

Joe

Joe,

While I agree with your conclusion about pastoral responsibility I think you were a bit hard on Mark. Part of reclaiming our heritage is reclaiming our lay heritage of responsibility. Mark was right to challenge the fellow but then should have taken him to Father and not thrown him out. This follows the pattern Jesus established as recorded in the Gospel of St. Matthew.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Marko,

We all lose our tempers - even, yes, I do too

There are Ukie Catholics who, if they heard your congregation omit the "Filioque," might have reacted as those SSPXers did . . .

Old Church Slavonic? We have our nationalists who opposed its continued use for years!

They didn't like the Pope?

We have those too!

When Father was saying the Litiya once, he mentioned "St Josaphat of Polotsk."

A babushia next to me blurted out, "We honour that . . . .?!"

I do think you were hard on them, not because they didn't deserve it, but because they just don't know any better.

Even if they had bad experiences etc., their "Unam Sanctam" mindset would see us as "schismatics."

Taras Shevchenko's poetry uses "schismatic" to define "Ukrainian" from the point of view of Catholics.

The Uniate bishop Borecky in the 17th century wrote to his Orthodox counterpart, Saint George Konissky, to say that "when they are in heated conversation, the Poles call us (Uniates) 'schismatics' just as they call you that."

So when this family referred to you as such, they were following an historically-conditioned knee-jerk response.

And they will believe what they want to believe.

The most that you could have done differently, I suppose, is take them to see your priest.

He may have simply said his peace and bade them a good day.

But who knows?

For next time, Big Guy!

Alex

Mark, I'll give ya points for greeting strangers...

From a purely human standpoint, I completely understand your actions & reactions. It isn't pleasant to have strangers barge into the house & insult your family's interior decorating.

It probably would have been better to let Father decide whether or not these folks were welcome - assuming this gentleman would be willing to speak to a "schismatic" priest...

(Darn that busted human nature...on all sides)

Sharon

XPUCTOC BOCKPEC!

Dear Mark:

While none of us likes to lose our temper, I, for one, think you did the right thing by setting them straight.

Really, folks, would people like that sit around and wait for the priest to come out and set them right? Anyway, the "ksionz" probably has better things to do on Pascha than deal with a bunch of a******s (other than uppity choir conductors, of course ).

Mark - I, for one, wish I had your gumption.

Yours,

kl

Dan,

I agree. It was not his responsibility to throw newcomers out of the church. It is one thing to give witness and be available and willing to answer questions (or point people in the right direction to those who do), but assuming the decision to throw someone out without first appealing the problem to the pastor is not very good. Sometimes, visitors call the pastor first before making their first visit and their experience is nothing what they imagined. I know well about reclaiming heritage and all. I've met many newcomers to the parish and answered questions, and I have also introduced them to the spiritual father of the community, namely the pastor.

Though I never contemplated wacking someone with an icon in anger. Do you think that would have been a bit "hard" on someone? (no pun intended)

God bless!
Joe

Dear Professor Dan,

Cantor Joseph hard on someone?

Can we even contemplate something like that?

(I think having Cantor Joseph around the parish would whip us all into shape!)

Alex

Why wait for the priest to wack visitors with an icon if one can do it by oneself?

Dear J Thur:

Of course, hitting someone over the head with an icon is not a good idea (not to mention using a sacred thing for a not-so-sacred purpose). I don't see how you could have gotten that from my post. In short, violence - bad. Telling these people that they were wrong and aksing them to leave before they tried to ruin anyone else's Pascha - good.

While we're on the subject, though - from the books of Chicago Ukrainian church history comes the story of a pastor hitting a parish counsel member over the head with a wooden wall cross during a meeting. Granted, it was not in church, but if you want a precedent - there it is! :p

Yours,

kl

Mark --

Well, I have my own story for you. From time to time, if Fr. Mike has made a particularly succinct and EXCELLENT POINT during his homily, I will say "AMEN!!" rather loudly.

(I can't help it!!! It's that "Amen Nerve" that all Protestants have. Mine hasn't withered and died off yet!!)

The funny thing is that it got a couple of folks a tad upset (it ISN'T "our way") but Fr. just loved it!! He thought it was great to have someone validate what he was saying.

I guess we all have our idiosyncysies, right?

Brother Ed -- convert from the "Amen corner" of the Body of Christ.

PS If yer priest didn't "take ya to the woodshed" over the incident, I'd put it behind me and just be ready for the next set of SSPXer's who walk through the doors. Maybe next time will be different.

(I looked him square in the eye and told he needed to leave that he did not belong there and to not come back.)

That might have been a little harsh, but its probably not the first time they've heard it.

It was good of you to reach out to strangers in your church. I have to wonder why they were there on Pascha? No home parish? Too confrontational elsewhere?
The problem is theirs from the sounds of it and you just got caught up in it. It is hard to just bid them peace and walk away without wanting to wring their necks for breaking your gestalt, but maybe they will be back and you'll have another chance at them!

This is part of a post Alex posted on another thread. It seems to fit here, so I stole it and moved it.

"St Nicholas gave a good account of himself at the First Ecumenical Council when he gave the heretic Arius a "shot to the chops." He could be a patron of boxers.

Pope St Pius X knocked out a parishioner with a single blow for swearing out loud after Sunday Mass."

Altar Boy,

"I will say "AMEN!!" rather loudly."

I do the same thing. No one has ever reprimanded me. I suppose I'm too old and can intimidate them. But Father loves it. So I keep it up. I have no plans to change.

Dan Lauffer

We should always be kind and loving towards other people. The Gospel demands it. That said, when folks come to the Church, it should be with humility and the soul of a pilgrim to seek the graces that a new parish can provide. These folks were probably just fulfilling their "Sunday obligation" and decided to see just what them thar' furriners were up to.

The Gospel tells the Disciples that if they enter a town and are poorly received, that they should leave and shake the dirt from their sandals. In this case, the shoe was on the other foot (no pun intended!) and it is the people of the church, including Brother Mark, who were to shake these dust-bunnies from the congregation.

Apart from using a heavy wooden icon upside the head, which I agree would be in bad taste, I would have suggested that the language that they heard was actually Latin in a dialect form (they probably wouldn't have known the difference) and would have been a great cause of confusion since they are probably quite intent on restoration of Latin! You know, after that shooting incident at the Albanian church outside Detroit, perhaps we could spread the rumor that all Easterns pack heat -- even in church. Might give 'em second thoughts!

But I guess the best thing would be to say: "You're nuts and disrespectful to boot. Please go away and only return when you've learned some manners."

Christ is Risen!!